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<2019683801.8543349.1448121838048.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 10:38:02 -0800
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To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11481ef6bf3dbf0525114ab2
X-Originating-IP: 98.139.170.167
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Scary
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X-Yahoo-Profile: rosaamltd
From: Rosa Americana <rosaamltd@gmail.com>
--001a11481ef6bf3dbf0525114ab2
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This is why you "buy the coin, not the slab." A fake coin in a fake slab,
or a fake coin snuck into a real slab carries zero guarantee by any of the
grading companies, and you will not be getting a refund. If a fake fools
them and makes it into a slab by them you MIGHT have some recourse if you
can prove it is a fake -- though you often can't do that without breaking
it out of the slab, which negates the guarantee.
The question that James asked has an easy answer. OF COURSE it can be
done. The grading services don't have any secret, proprietary technology.
They are using plastic injection molding machines to form the slabs, have
another machine to seal them, and something to print the labels on. ANY
technology can be replicated somewhere else -- especially when much of that
technology probably came from China in the first place! The question is
how good of a fake coin and/or slab do the counterfeiters need to make? If
they need to make one EXACTLY like something else, it is doable, but it
will be quite expensive to get right. But if what you are faking is a
slabbed 1804 dollar, then "quite expensive" is still just a small fraction
of what you could sell the coin for, right? As of now, and I discussed
this in a C4N article, the Chinese mindset is still on the widget side of
production -- turn out 1,000,000 pieces at $1 apiece. They don't have to
be great fakes to sell that way. But if their mindset changes and they
want to sell 1 piece at $1,000,000 then it becomes a completely different
ballgame, and if they have to invest $100,000 in equipment and testing to
get it "just right" that is still a $900,000 profit margin.
Jeff
On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 8:03 AM, James Higby earlyamericancoppers@yahoo.com
[colonial-coins] <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
> Yet.
> ------------------------------
> *From:* "Ray Williams njraywms@optonline.net [colonial-coins]" <
> colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
> *To:* "colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" <
> colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, November 21, 2015 9:47 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Scary
>
>
> There's something to be said for buying well provenanced coins from
> reputable dealers who will make good if there's a problem. I'm glad I
> don't collect a modernseries of coins where dependency on third party
> grading is necessary. Not that there aren't colonial fakes - China is
> making them, but in general, they're not deceptive.
> Ray
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 10:32 AM, James Higby
> earlyamericancoppers@yahoo.com [colonial-coins] wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Several years ago a dealer friend and I had a discussion of this very
> phenomenon, which has been going on for quite some time. And every time
> there is online discussion, the slab counterfeiters and coin counterfeite=
rs
> take heed and correct their "errors." As they get better and better at
> their craft, there remain fewer and fewer who can tell the difference.
> Evidence exists that already both major slabbing companies have been
> fooled. PCGS was set up at the Chicago International Coin Fair four year=
s
> ago with a display of their own slabs that had fake or altered coins in
> them. This raises the conundrum, "Can a fake coin (or fake slab) be made
> so well that no one except the faker can tell the difference?" That
> question, of course, has no answer, but the implications are chilling, to
> say the least.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* "Ray Williams njraywms@optonline.net [colonial-coins]" <
> colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
> *To:* "colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" <
> colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, November 20, 2015 1:36 PM
> *Subject:* [Colonial Numismatics] Scary
>
>
> Hi Guys,
> This is not colonial but it is scary! A counterfeit coin in a
> counterfeit slab! Although not on the below link, I think I heard that
> the NGC number matches the coin and grade of a real slabbed coin. So
> how do we defend ourselves? I don't have the answer. If a coin dealer
> is offered something like this, how can they tell it's bad. Most people
> just assume that if it's in plastic, it's good.
> So if some of my friends out there are investing in slabbed gold or
> silver, be careful. Get receipts, from reputable dealers, that itemize
> the slab numbers.
> Have fun out there!
> Ray
>
>
>
>
>
>
>=20
>
--001a11481ef6bf3dbf0525114ab2
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>This is why you "buy the coin, not the slab.&quo=
t;=C2=A0 A fake coin in a fake slab, or a fake coin snuck into a real slab =
carries zero guarantee by any of the grading companies, and you will not be=
getting a refund.=C2=A0 If a fake fools them and makes it into a slab by t=
hem you MIGHT have some recourse if you can prove it is a fake -- though yo=
u often can't do that without breaking it out of the slab, which negate=
s the guarantee.</div><div><br></div><div>The question that James asked has=
an easy answer.=C2=A0 OF COURSE it can be done.=C2=A0 The grading services=
don't have any secret, proprietary technology.=C2=A0 They are using pl=
astic injection molding machines to form the slabs, have another machine to=
seal them, and something to print the labels on.=C2=A0 ANY technology can =
be replicated somewhere else -- especially when much of that technology pro=
bably came from China in the first place!=C2=A0 The question is how good of=
a fake coin and/or slab do the counterfeiters need to make?=C2=A0 If they =
need to make one EXACTLY like something else, it is doable, but it will be =
quite expensive to get right.=C2=A0 But if what you are faking is a slabbed=
1804 dollar, then "quite expensive" is still just a small fracti=
on of what you could sell the coin for, right?=C2=A0 As of now, and I discu=
ssed this in a C4N article, the Chinese mindset is still on the widget side=
of production -- turn out 1,000,000 pieces at $1 apiece.=C2=A0 They don=
9;t have to be great fakes to sell that way.=C2=A0 But if their mindset cha=
nges and they want to sell 1 piece at $1,000,000 then it becomes a complete=
ly different ballgame, and if they have to invest $100,000 in equipment and=
testing to get it "just right" that is still a $900,000 profit m=
argin.</div><div><br></div><div>Jeff</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 8:03 AM, James Higby=
<a href=3D"mailto:earlyamericancoppers@yahoo.com">earlyamericancoppers@yah=
oo.com</a> [colonial-coins] <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:colonia=
l-coins@yahoogroups.com" target=3D"_blank">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</=
a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<u></u>
=20
<div style=3D"background-color:#fff">
<span>=C2=A0</span>
<div>
<div>
<div>
=20=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20=20=20
<p><div style=3D"color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:Helveti=
caNeue-Light,Helvetica Neue Light,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Gra=
nde,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div><span></span></div>Yet.<br> <div style=
=3D"font-family:HelveticaNeue-Light,Helvetica Neue Light,Helvetica Neue,Hel=
vetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px"> <div style=3D"font-f=
amily:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif=
;font-size:16px"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1"> <font face=3D"Arial" si=
ze=3D"2"><span> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> "=
Ray Williams <a href=3D"mailto:njraywms@optonline.net" target=3D"_blank">nj=
raywms@optonline.net</a> [colonial-coins]" <<a href=3D"mailto:colon=
ial-coins@yahoogroups.com" target=3D"_blank">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=
</a>><br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> "<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" target=3D"_blank">colonial-coi=
ns@yahoogroups.com</a> <a href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</a>" <<a href=3D"mai=
lto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" target=3D"_blank">colonial-coins@yahoog=
roups.com</a>> <br> </span><b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</sp=
an></b> Saturday, November 21, 2015 9:47 AM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weig=
ht:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Scary<br> </font> <=
/div><span> <div><br><div><div>
<span>=C2=A0</span>
<div>
<div>
<div>
=20=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20=20=20
<div>There's something to be said for buying well provenanced coi=
ns from reputable dealers who will make good if there's a problem.=C2=
=A0 I'm glad I don't collect a modernseries of coins where dependen=
cy on third party grading is necessary.=C2=A0 Not that there aren't col=
onial fakes - China is making them, but in general, they're not decepti=
ve.=C2=A0 </div><div>Ray</div><div><br><br></div><div><div style=3D"font-fa=
mily:Verdana"><div>=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div>On Sat, No=
v 21, 2015 at 10:32 AM, James Higby <a href=3D"mailto:earlyamericancoppers@=
yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank">earlyamericancoppers@yahoo.com</a> [colonial-c=
oins] wrote:<div>=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0=
pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left-color:rgb(136,136,136);border-left-width:2px;b=
order-left-style:solid">
<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:HelveticaNeue-Light,Helvetica Ne=
ue Light,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:=
16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><div dir=3D"ltr">Several years ago =
a dealer friend and I had a discussion of this very phenomenon, which has b=
een going on for=C2=A0quite some time.=C2=A0 And every time there is online=
discussion, the slab counterfeiters and coin counterfeiters take heed and =
correct their "errors."=C2=A0=C2=A0As they get better and better =
at their craft, there remain fewer and fewer who can tell the difference.=
=C2=A0 Evidence exists that already both major slabbing companies have been=
fooled.=C2=A0 PCGS was set up at the=C2=A0Chicago International Coin Fair =
four years ago with a display of their own slabs that had fake or altered c=
oins in them.=C2=A0 This raises the conundrum, "Can a fake coin (or fa=
ke slab) be made so well that no one except the faker can tell the differen=
ce?"=C2=A0 That
question, of course, has no answer, but the implications are chilling, to =
say the least.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<br clear=3D"none">=C2=A0=
</div><div style=3D"font-family:HelveticaNeue-Light,Helvetica Neue Light,H=
elvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px"> <di=
v style=3D"font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida =
Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1"> <font =
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From:</span>=
</b> "Ray Williams <a href=3D"mailto:njraywms@optonline.net" target=3D=
"_blank">njraywms@optonline.net</a> [colonial-coins]" <<a href=3D"m=
ailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" target=3D"_blank">colonial-coins@yaho=
ogroups.com</a>><br clear=3D"none"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">=
To:</span></b> "<a href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</a> <a href=3D"mailto:colonial=
-coins@yahoogroups.com" target=3D"_blank">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</a=
>" <<a href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</a>> <br clear=3D"none"> <b><span st=
yle=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Friday, November 20, 2015 1:36 PM=
<br clear=3D"none"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>=
[Colonial Numismatics] Scary<br clear=3D"none"> </font> </div> <div><br cl=
ear=3D"none"><div><div>
<span>=C2=A0</span>
<div>
<div>
<div>
=20=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20=20=20
<div>Hi Guys,<br clear=3D"none">
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This is not colonial but it is scary!=C2=A0 A coun=
terfeit coin in a <br clear=3D"none">
counterfeit slab!=C2=A0 Although not on the below link, I think I heard tha=
t <br clear=3D"none">
the NGC number matches the coin and grade of a real slabbed coin.=C2=A0 So =
<br clear=3D"none">
how do we defend ourselves?=C2=A0 I don't have the answer.=C2=A0 If a c=
oin dealer <br clear=3D"none">
is offered something like this, how can they tell it's bad.=C2=A0 Most =
people <br clear=3D"none">
just assume that if it's in plastic, it's good.=C2=A0<br clear=3D"n=
one">
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 So if some of my friends out there are investing i=
n slabbed gold or <br clear=3D"none">
silver, be careful.=C2=A0 Get receipts, from reputable dealers, that itemiz=
e <br clear=3D"none">
the slab numbers.=C2=A0<br clear=3D"none">
Have fun out there!<br clear=3D"none">
Ray<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
</div>
=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20
<div style=3D"min-height:0px;color:rgb(255,255,255)"></div></div>
</div></div><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></div> </div> </div> </di=
v>
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
<div style=3D"color:white"></div>
</div></blockquote></div></div>
</div>
=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20
<div><div style=3D"min-height:0px;color:rgb(255,255,255)"></div></div>
</div><div></div></div><br><br></div> </div> </div> </span></div></div></di=
v><p></p>
</p></div>
=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20
<div style=3D"color:#fff;min-height:0"></div>
</div>
=20=20
</blockquote></div><br></div>
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