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Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:25:19 -0800
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Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Bibliophile?
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From: Rosa Americana <rosaamltd@gmail.com>
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Hall's published work only covered the 1787's and Miller basically
plagiarized all of that, changing the numbers in the 33 and Z series, but
giving a table at the back to the Hall numbers. But he also really used
Hall's manuscript notes on the other years as well, though that wasn't
known until that manuscript was located in the Connecticut State Library.
Jeff
On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 5:28 PM, Ray Williams njraywms@optonline.net
[colonial-coins] <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
> Bruce,
> I don't think I have a reprint (or original) of Hall's notes on 87
> CT's. But I'd need to look when my library is functional again. About 2=
0
> years ago I purchased a Dickeson, in ratty condition. I had it bound in a
> functional binding. I think Dickeson would have achieved more acclaim ha=
d
> he done a better job classifying die varieties. He classified NJs by jus=
t
> one side. If I remember, he used the terms obverse and reverse for the
> opposite sides we refer to them today (going by a feeble memory). But he
> made the effort to publish this magnificent work in the late 1850s.
> I wish Bushnell would have published his research, but instead... h=
e
> lent his manuscript to Crosby to use for his 1875 work. That manuscript =
is
> lost or buried somewhere.
> Not being a CT Collector, is it true that Miller just bguilton Hall'=
s
> original works?
> Ray
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 07:55 PM, Bruce Smith bhsmith325@gmail.com
> [colonial-coins] wrote:
>
>
>
> As with the coins, provenance adds interest. I just bought a reprint copy
> of Hall's notes on 1787 Connecticuts, and it's cool that it formerly
> belonged to George Perkins. As regards a favorite "not useful," I was
> willing to pay to have my Dickenson rebound (using the original boards) a=
nd
> repaired.
>
> Bruce
>
> On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Ray Williams njraywms@optonline.net
> [colonial-coins] <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Congratulations!
>> As with the Red Books, it's interesting to see how coin description=
s
>> and prices vary from year to year over the decades.
>> Thinking about Wayte Raymond, The original Crosby I own has his
>> bookplate on the inside front cover. I imagine he used this book often =
as
>> a reference in his business. BUT... When I saw the Ford library sale,
>> there was another Crosby having a Wayte Raymond bookplate. Why would he
>> own two Crosbys? As they had his bookplates pasted in the cover, I assu=
me
>> they were his personal copies and not inventory for sale. I'm thinking =
he
>> may have had a personal library at home and another at his office...
>> I wonder if there's a good biography online for Raymond... I think
>> I'll take a minute to look right now.
>> Congratulations again!
>> Ray
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 06:23 PM, James Higby
>> earlyamericancoppers@yahoo.com [colonial-coins] wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks to David Sklow I recently completed the run of Wayte Raymond
>> hardcovers.
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* "Rosa Americana rosaamltd@gmail.com [colonial-coins]" <
>> colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
>> *To:* colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
>> *Sent:* Friday, December 11, 2015 1:46 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Bibliophile?
>>
>>
>>
>> Oliver, I think Crosby should win that hands down -- again, not because
>> the book itself isn't useful (it still is, and Eric Newman was right whe=
n
>> he called it the cornerstone of all research in colonial American
>> numismatics), but because there are so many reprints available for a
>> fraction of the price of an original that no one actually needs to spend
>> the money (now a grand or so) on an original....yet most of us do.
>>
>> Maybe a poll on a favorite "not useful" book that doesn't have a reprint
>> available would be interesting too. Something we own just because it is
>> there, even though we may never open it again after our first perusal.
>> This might be a book that was supplanted later on -- say the Dickeson
>> Numismatic Manual or the later Wayte Raymond Standard Catalogue....
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 11:37 AM, 'Oliver D. Hoover'
>> oliver.hoover@sympatico.ca [colonial-coins] <
>> colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Taking this discussion a little further, it might be interesting to take
>> a poll of favorite "not useful" books (using Jeff's definition) that
>> listmembers have in their research libraries.
>>
>> Oliver
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 11, 2015, at 2:27 PM, Rosa Americana rosaamltd@gmail.com
>> [colonial-coins] wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Ray, as someone who has built, disposed, built and disposed of a few
>> libraries over the years, I have to say that you are a bibliophile. Yes=
,
>> you can say that your library is only a research library -- but, truth b=
e
>> told, a research library would be just a couple of shelves of books and =
a
>> computer tablet to view titles in the public domain without ever having =
to
>> buy physical copies. Anything that wasn't useful would be tossed or sol=
d.
>> An original Crosby or Maris is not useful -- as you said, there are
>> excellent reprints available that will do the job. Yet I've owned sever=
al
>> Marises (Marisii?), a couple of Hall's on 1787 Connecticuts and a dozen
>> Crosby's (I just sold two at auction, cutting my hoard down to just thre=
e
>> copies...which is three more than are needed, of course). I seldom look=
ed
>> at the originals -- if I needed to use the books for research I would us=
e
>> the reprints and not risk damaging the more valuable ones. But every no=
w
>> and then I would take the original off the shelves, thumb through it,
>> breathe in that wonderful musty smell, and think about who owned that bo=
ok
>> before me, what they used it for, what coins they had in their hands as
>> they were comparing images, etc.
>>
>> My response to your question of whether you are a bibiliophile is easy -=
-
>> ALL of us who collect colonial coins in a serious matter are bibliophile=
s.
>> We are collectors. We want our coins, not in a crass monetary manner li=
ke
>> a miser hoarding his gold, but rather to learn about them and bring the
>> past to life. Our libraries are the same. We want the reference books =
--
>> and the obscure titles, auction cataloguess that are 150 years old and
>> price lists of firms long out of business not because we are hoarding
>> paper, but because they are there, they have something to teach us and t=
hey
>> are tied together with the areas we collect. I have known NO serious
>> collector of coins who didn't also appreciate numismatic books! All maj=
or
>> collectors of the past had impressive libraries -- Garrett, Brand, Norwe=
b
>> especially. Newman and Ford built libraries that were just as impressiv=
e
>> as their collections. At the one Siboni BBQ that I was able to get to I
>> spent more time drooling over the books on his shelves than I did over t=
he
>> coins on display -- and there were some mighty impressive coins on displ=
ay!
>>
>> In fact, I would go even further -- if you DON'T have a decent library,
>> you are simply NOT a serious numismatist. You could be a casual collect=
or
>> or, worse, an investor. But if you don't have more books than shelves
>> available, then you are doing something wrong! So when Diane tells you
>> that you don't need any more books, tell her that if you want to be
>> considered serious, you really do....and hey, they haven't been that bad=
of
>> an investment over the years either!
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 9:04 AM, James Higby
>> earlyamericancoppers@yahoo.com [colonial-coins] <
>> colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> The etymology of the word says it all: biblio =3D book; phile =3D lover=
.
>> Put "em together and go look in the mirror!
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* "Ray Williams njraywms@optonline.net [colonial-coins]" <
>> colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
>> *To:* "colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" <
>> colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com>
>> *Sent:* Friday, December 11, 2015 7:59 AM
>> *Subject:* [Colonial Numismatics] Bibliophile?
>>
>>
>> Hi Guys,
>> After perusing the Kolbe Fanning catalog I received yesterday, I
>> paused to think about my library. Am I a bibliophile? What is a
>> bibliophile? Both questions I have no answer for. I consider my
>> library a working reference library. Diane constantly tells me that I
>> don't need any more books - that I can't possibly read everything I have
>> in my lifetime. I remind her it is a reference library and the material
>> is available when I need to read it.
>> That being said, I have beautiful Quarterman reprints of Crosby and
>> Maris, and a number of reprints of rare books. These are perfect for
>> research and I can mark them up with notes in the margins and not worry
>> about the book's value. I don't need to spend hundreds or thousands for
>> an original copy. There are some books that don't have reprints such as
>> Dickeson, but may be available online. The Newman Numismatic Portal is
>> digitizing many numismatic works, that will be available for everyone.
>> But, I do own an original Crosby and an original Maris, and some
>> other original works too. There is something about holding a nicely
>> bound original book from the 1800's... The same book that Wayte Raymond
>> used in his office or home. The same Maris book that Quarterman used to
>> make its reprints... There is a certain sentimentality that colonial
>> collectors have - that's why we attempt to keep pedigree information
>> intact for our coins. Knowing who possessed the coins before us adds to
>> the romance of owning them. Keeping this information intact for the
>> future owners is a task of love.
>> The same is true for me with some books. Having an original of a
>> classic reference is a thrill. I have friends that collect books for as
>> collectibles. And then when the time comes, they sell/auction them to
>> other book collectors. When the time comes to part with my library, it
>> will have two markets - those that collect books and those that need
>> working references for their coin collections. But some snowy evening
>> this Winter, you can find me in my recliner, with a fresh pot of coffee
>> and my 1875 Crosby in-hand. Just another of many ways I enjoy our
>> hobby.
>>
>> Have fun today!
>> Ray
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>=20
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hall's published work only covered the 1787's=
and Miller basically plagiarized all of that, changing the numbers in the =
33 and Z series, but giving a table at the back to the Hall numbers.=C2=A0 =
But he also really used Hall's manuscript notes on the other years as w=
ell, though that wasn't known until that manuscript was located in the =
Connecticut State Library.</div><div><br></div><div>Jeff</div></div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at =
5:28 PM, Ray Williams <a href=3D"mailto:njraywms@optonline.net">njraywms@op=
tonline.net</a> [colonial-coins] <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:co=
lonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" target=3D"_blank">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.=
com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<u></u>
=20
<div style=3D"background-color:#fff">
<span>=C2=A0</span>
<div>
<div>
<div>
=20=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20=20=20
<p><div style=3D"font-family:Verdana">Bruce,</div><div style=3D"font-=
family:Verdana">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I don't think I have a reprint (or =
original) of Hall's notes on 87 CT's.=C2=A0 But I'd need to loo=
k when my library is functional again.=C2=A0 About 20 years ago I purchased=
a Dickeson, in ratty condition. I had it bound in a functional binding.=C2=
=A0 I think Dickeson would have achieved more acclaim had he done a better =
job classifying die varieties.=C2=A0 He classified NJs by just one side.=C2=
=A0 If I remember, he used the terms obverse and reverse for the opposite s=
ides we refer to them today (going by a feeble memory).=C2=A0 But he made t=
he effort to publish this magnificent work in the late 1850s. =C2=A0</div><=
div style=3D"font-family:Verdana">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I wish Bushnell would=
have published his research, but instead... =C2=A0he lent his manuscript t=
o Crosby to use for his 1875 work.=C2=A0 That manuscript is lost or buried =
somewhere. =C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family:Verdana">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0Not being a CT Collector, is it true that Miller just bguilton Hall'=
s original works?</div><div style=3D"font-family:Verdana">Ray</div><div><di=
v class=3D"h5"><div style=3D"font-family:Verdana"><br></div><div style=3D"f=
ont-family:Verdana"><br><br><br>On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 07:55 PM, Bruce Smi=
th <a href=3D"mailto:bhsmith325@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bhsmith325@gma=
il.com</a> [colonial-coins] wrote:<br><br><blockquote style=3D"border-left:=
2px solid rgb(136,136,136);margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex">
<br><br>
<div dir=3D"ltr">As with the coins, provenance adds interest. I just bought=
a reprint copy of Hall's notes on 1787 Connecticuts, and it's cool=
that it formerly belonged to George Perkins. As regards a favorite "n=
ot useful," I was willing to pay to have my Dickenson rebound (using t=
he original boards) and repaired.<div><br></div><div>Bruce</div></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 a=
t 6:53 PM, Ray Williams <a href=3D"mailto:njraywms@optonline.net" target=3D=
"_blank">njraywms@optonline.net</a> [colonial-coins] <span dir=3D"ltr"><=
<a href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" target=3D"_blank">colonia=
l-coins@yahoogroups.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"border-left:1px #ccc solid">
<u></u>
=20
<div style=3D"background-color:#fff">
<span>=C2=A0</span>
<div>
<div>
<div>
=20=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20=20=20
<p>Congratulations!</p><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 As with the Red =
Books, it's interesting to see how coin descriptions and prices vary fr=
om year to year over the decades.</div><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Thinki=
ng about Wayte Raymond, The original Crosby I own has his bookplate on the =
inside front cover.=C2=A0 I imagine he used this book often as a reference =
in his business.=C2=A0 BUT...=C2=A0 When I saw the Ford library sale, there=
was another Crosby having a Wayte Raymond bookplate.=C2=A0 Why would he ow=
n two Crosbys?=C2=A0 As they had his bookplates pasted in the cover, I assu=
me they were his personal copies and not inventory for sale.=C2=A0 I'm =
thinking he may have had a personal library at home and another at his offi=
ce...=C2=A0 </div><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I wonder if there's a g=
ood biography online for Raymond...=C2=A0 I think I'll take a minute to=
look right now.=C2=A0 </div><div>Congratulations again!</div><div>Ray</div=
><div><div><div style=3D"font-family:Verdana"><div>=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0<=
/div><div>=C2=A0</div>On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 06:23 PM, James Higby <a href=
=3D"mailto:earlyamericancoppers@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank">earlyamericanc=
oppers@yahoo.com</a> [colonial-coins] wrote:<div>=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</d=
iv><blockquote style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left-color:rgb(136,=
136,136);border-left-width:2px;border-left-style:solid">
<br><br>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:HelveticaNeue-Light,Helvetica Ne=
ue Light,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:=
16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><div><span>Thanks to David Sklow I =
recently completed the run of Wayte Raymond hardcovers.</span></div><br> <=
div style=3D"font-family:HelveticaNeue-Light,Helvetica Neue Light,Helvetica=
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px"> <div style=
=3D"font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,=
sans-serif;font-size:16px"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"=
2"> </font><hr size=3D"1"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From:</span>=
</b> "Rosa Americana <a href=3D"mailto:rosaamltd@gmail.com" target=3D"=
_blank">rosaamltd@gmail.com</a> [colonial-coins]" <<a href=3D"mailt=
o:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" target=3D"_blank">colonial-coins@yahoogro=
ups.com</a>><br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <a h=
ref=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" target=3D"_blank">colonial-co=
ins@yahoogroups.com</a> <br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Friday, December 11, =
2015 1:46 PM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re=
: [Colonial Numismatics] Bibliophile?<br> </div> <div><br><div><div>
<span>=C2=A0</span>
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<div>=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Oliver, I think Crosby should =
win that hands down -- again, not because the book itself isn't useful =
(it still is, and Eric Newman was right when he called it the cornerstone o=
f all research in colonial American numismatics), but because there are so =
many reprints available for a fraction of the price of an original that no =
one actually needs to spend the money (now a grand or so) on an original...=
.yet most of us do.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Maybe a poll on=
a favorite "not useful" book that doesn't have a reprint ava=
ilable would be interesting too.=C2=A0 Something we own just because it is =
there, even though we may never open it again after our first perusal.=C2=
=A0 This might be a book that was supplanted later on -- say the Dickeson N=
umismatic Manual or the later Wayte Raymond Standard Catalogue....</div><di=
v><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Jeff</div></div><div><br><br></div><div><di=
v><br clear=3D"none"><div>On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 11:37 AM, 'Oliver D. =
Hoover' <a href=3D"mailto:oliver.hoover@sympatico.ca" target=3D"_blank"=
>oliver.hoover@sympatico.ca</a> [colonial-coins] <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" target=3D"_blank">colonial-co=
ins@yahoogroups.com</a>></span> wrote:<br clear=3D"none"><blockquote sty=
le=3D"border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-=
style:solid">
<u></u>
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<div>Taking this discussion a little further, it might be interesting=
to take a poll of favorite "not useful" books (using Jeff's =
definition) that listmembers have in their research libraries.</div><div><b=
r clear=3D"none"></div><div>Oliver<div><div><br clear=3D"none"><div><br cle=
ar=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"><div><div>On Dec 11, 2015, at 2:2=
7 PM, Rosa Americana <a href=3D"mailto:rosaamltd@gmail.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">rosaamltd@gmail.com</a> [colonial-coins] wrote:</div><br clear=3D"none">=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span style=3D"text-transform:none;text-indent:0p=
x;letter-spacing:normal;font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-varian=
t:normal;font-weight:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;border-coll=
apse:separate"></span><div><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div>Ray, as someone who has built, disposed, built and disposed o=
f a few libraries over the years, I have to say that you are a bibliophile.=
=C2=A0 Yes, you can say that your library is only a research library -- but=
, truth be told, a research library would be just a couple of shelves of bo=
oks and a computer tablet to view titles in the public domain without ever =
having to buy physical copies.=C2=A0 Anything that wasn't useful would =
be tossed or sold.=C2=A0 An original Crosby or Maris is not useful -- as yo=
u said, there are excellent reprints available that will do the job.=C2=A0 =
Yet I've owned several Marises (Marisii?), a couple of Hall's on 17=
87 Connecticuts and a dozen Crosby's (I just sold two at auction, cutti=
ng my hoard down to just three copies...which is three more than are needed=
, of course).=C2=A0 I
seldom looked at the originals -- if I needed to use the books for researc=
h I would use the reprints and not risk damaging the more va
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