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Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 22:13:16 -0500
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From: "mario" <mariobyrge@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] WHERE NEW JERSEY COPPERS HUBBED??????
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Well Mr. Palmer and all who disagree:;
As I chatted to Roger, I cannot post pictures,.........however, with no dis=
respect, you phrase the word,....."meanningless without pictures" As resear=
ch goes, one must be open to all areas of suggestions, theories and possibi=
lities,.........but as I see,.......many of you do not want to upgrade thes=
e chats that I present,........but rather downgrade my opinions,..........j=
ust like the old days,............if one says fine, then all must agree,...=
.......well, research goes in every direction! I am not faulting this chat =
group,.......I understand that there are some current New Jersey research g=
oing on and a couple big collections may be comming onto the market in the =
near future, so I perfectly understand that I am bringing up some "Challeng=
ing" accusations and a few of you feel that it is inpropriate at this point=
. One individual in this group emailed me privately saying that after what =
research is going on now and then finished, then he will discuss my writtin=
gs about opinions. Yes, Don P. was pretty upset that Ford beat him to the d=
raw on auctioning his (Ford) collection,...........hell, why not take advan=
tage of the current market and the interest demands "now". The only group r=
esponse is from Roger whom I have the upmost respect for,.......he communic=
ates his opinions,........this is way this group should work,........work t=
ogether instead of that almighty "B_ _ S_ _ _ of a group of individuals try=
ing to dominate this area of collecting,........hell, we all should take up=
collecting guitars and Led Zepplin music,.........., hell,.even throw in a=
little Sammy Hager and Alice Cooper,...............this is what gets the at=
tention,.........obviously, theories and possibilities of a educational for=
um like chatting about colonials, dies and hubs,......minters and die cutte=
rs,......christ, that may get to complicated. Yes, I seem alittle irritated=
on the response to some of my stories,.......so why cover-up or change the=
topic for what,.to suit a couple hot-shot Jersey collectors,.......now tha=
t is pure BULLS_ _T
Mario
----- Original Message -----=20
From: palmers4@erols.com=20
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] WHERE NEW JERSEY COPPERS HUBBED??????
Roger, Without pictures, this discussion is TOTALLY academic, and therefo=
r
meaningless. David
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Roger Moore rogermoore435@yahoo.com
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 14:31:27 -0800 (PST)
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] WHERE NEW JERSEY COPPERS HUBBED??????
<html><body>
<tt>
Mario, I hate to bring up other possibilities but two<BR>
that jump out are 1) contemporary re-engraving of the<BR>
die when it began to wear out, which I would expect<BR>
should show some widening of the lines and differences<BR>
between pre and post re-engraving, and 2) the non<BR>
contemporanious re-engraving of the coin for<BR>
fraudulent purposes, which I have seen on two coins<BR>
(not J reverses) which typically come with the split<BR>
grade. Do you have a picture of your coin? Roger<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
--- Mario Byrge <mariobyrge@comcast.net> wrote:<BR>
> WHERE NEW JERSEY COPPERS HUBBED? According to the<BR>
> researchers,..the <BR>
> answer is "no"! Connecticuts, 1786 at this time were<BR>
> hubbed. Were <BR>
> Fugios?,.........In England, the Brits were using<BR>
> hubs,......so why <BR>
> weren't the New Jerseys? Yes, to all, I read Mike<BR>
> Hooders work on <BR>
> Reverse J,.......but by practical<BR>
> standpoint,...........who can <BR>
> explain why a Maris obverse 34 in the latest of die<BR>
> states,....nearly <BR>
> cracked in thirds was continued in striking with a<BR>
> early reverse J.<BR>
> I own a highend VERY FINE just this<BR>
> way,..........the obverse is in <BR>
> the most severest die state while yet, the reverse<BR>
> is the earliest <BR>
> die state,.....no dissruption on the<BR>
> shield,........full lettering <BR>
> and shield lines,........so how can this be<BR>
> explained. Is it <BR>
> practical that a obverse die, in a deteriorated die<BR>
> state,..swollen, <BR>
> broken in several places and ready for the scrap<BR>
> pile still strike <BR>
> with the pressures to a reverse that has no<BR>
> deteriation or <BR>
> disturbances to fully strike all details and devices<BR>
> in strong <BR>
> perfect order? I'm all ears,.....who can answer<BR>
> this. <BR>
> Usually when one die is broken and damaged and the<BR>
> other is perfect, <BR>
> then under the striking pressure,.....the finished<BR>
> product, the side <BR>
> with the perfect die will not strike up<BR>
> completely,.........<BR>
> So if there were no reverse J hubbing, then how can<BR>
> my 34 latest, <BR>
> broken die state exist with a "Perfect" no<BR>
> imperfections, but yet, <BR>
> extremely strong all detail reverse? I have never<BR>
> seen another 34-J <BR>
> paired in this die state,.......!!!!<BR>
> We should explore the possibilities that perhaps,<BR>
> one of the New <BR>
> Jersey mints may have experimented with hubbing on a<BR>
> couple different <BR>
> varieties,..................wouldn't it stand to<BR>
> reason that a die <BR>
> cutter of Jersey coppers would probably know that<BR>
> some Connecticuts <BR>
> were being hubbed,......especially if they were tied<BR>
> to Buell?<BR>
> MARIO<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________<BR>
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</tt>
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<ul>
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Well Mr. Palmer and all who disagree:;</FO=
NT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>As I chatted to Roger, I cannot post=20
pictures,.........however, with no disrespect, you phrase the=20
word,....."meanningless without pictures" As research goes, one must be ope=
n to=20
all areas of suggestions, theories and possibilities,.........but as I=20
see,.......many of you do not want to upgrade these chats that I=20
present,........but rather downgrade my opinions,..........just like the ol=
d=20
days,............if one says fine, then all must agree,..........well, rese=
arch=20
goes in every direction! I am not faulting this chat group,.......I underst=
and=20
that there are some current New Jersey research going on and a couple big=20
collections may be comming onto the market in the near future, so I perfect=
ly=20
understand that I am bringing up some "Challenging" accusations and a few o=
f you=20
feel that it is inpropriate at this point. One individual in this group ema=
iled=20
me privately saying that after what research is going on now and then finis=
hed,=20
then he will discuss my writtings about opinions. Yes, Don P. was pret=
ty=20
upset that Ford beat him to the draw on auctioning his (Ford)=20
collection,...........hell, why not take advantage of the current mark=
et=20
and the interest demands "now". The only group response is from R=
oger=20
whom I have the upmost respect for,.......he communicates his=20
opinions,........this is way this group should work,........work together=20
instead of that almighty "B_ _ S_ _ _ of a group of individuals trying to=20
dominate this area of collecting,........hell, we all should take up collec=
ting=20
guitars and Led Zepplin music,.........., hell,.even throw in alittle Sammy=
=20
Hager and Alice Cooper,...............this is what gets the=20
attention,.........obviously, theories and possibilities of a educational f=
orum=20
like chatting about colonials, dies and hubs,......minters and die=20
cutters,......christ, that may get to complicated. Yes, I seem alittle irri=
tated=20
on the response to some of my stories,.......so why cover-up or change the =
topic=20
for what,.to suit a couple hot-shot Jersey collectors,.......now that is pu=
re=20
BULLS_ _T</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mario</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LE=
FT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>Fro=
m:</B>=20
<A title=3Dpalmers4@erols.com=20
href=3D"mailto:palmers4@erols.com">palmers4@erols.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Dcolonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups=
.com</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 14, 2004 =
7:30=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Colonial Numismatics=
] WHERE=20
NEW JERSEY COPPERS HUBBED??????</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><TT>Roger, Without pictures, this discussion is TOTALLY=20
academic, and therefor<BR>meaningless. David<BR><BR>Original=20
Message:<BR>-----------------<BR>From: Roger Moore <A=20
href=3D"mailto:rogermoore435@yahoo.com">rogermoore435@yahoo.com</A><BR>Da=
te:=20
Wed, 14 Jan 2004 14:31:27 -0800 (PST)<BR>To: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups=
.com</A><BR>Subject:=20
Re: [Colonial Numismatics] WHERE NEW JERSEY COPPERS=20
HUBBED??????<BR><BR><BR><html><body><BR><BR><BR><tt><BR=
>Mario, =20
I hate to bring up other possibilities but two<BR><BR>that jump out=
are=20
1) contemporary re-engraving of the<BR><BR>die when it began to wea=
r=20
out, which I would expect<BR><BR>should show some widening of the l=
ines=20
and differences<BR><BR>between pre and post re-engraving, and 2) th=
e=20
non<BR><BR>contemporanious re-engraving of the coin=20
for<BR><BR>fraudulent purposes, which I have seen on two=20
coins<BR><BR>(not J reverses) which typically come with the=20
split<BR><BR>grade. Do you have a picture of your=20
coin? Roger<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>--- Mari=
o=20
Byrge <mariobyrge@comcast.net> wrote:<BR><BR>> WHERE NEW J=
ERSEY=20
COPPERS HUBBED? According to the<BR><BR>> researchers,..the=20
<BR><BR>> answer is "no"! Connecticuts, 1786 at this time=20
were<BR><BR>> hubbed. Were <BR><BR>> Fugios?,.........I=
n=20
England, the Brits were using<BR><BR>> hubs,......so why=20
<BR><BR>> weren't the New Jerseys? Yes, to all, I read=20
Mike<BR><BR>> Hooders work on <BR><BR>> Reverse J,.....=
..but=20
by practical<BR><BR>> standpoint,...........who can=20
<BR><BR>> explain why a Maris obverse 34 in the latest of=20
die<BR><BR>> states,....nearly <BR><BR>> cracked in thi=
rds=20
was continued in striking with a<BR><BR>> early reverse=20
J.<BR><BR>> I own a highend VERY FINE just this<BR><BR>>=
;=20
way,..........the obverse is in <BR><BR>> the most severest die =
state=20
while yet, the reverse<BR><BR>> is the earliest <BR><BR>&g=
t;=20
die state,.....no dissruption on the<BR><BR>> shield,........ful=
l=20
lettering <BR><BR>> and shield lines,........so how can this=20
be<BR><BR>> explained. Is it <BR><BR>> practical that a=
=20
obverse die, in a deteriorated die<BR><BR>> state,..swollen,=20
<BR><BR>> broken in several places and ready for the=20
scrap<BR><BR>> pile still strike <BR><BR>> with the=20
pressures to a reverse that has no<BR><BR>> deteriation or=20
<BR><BR>> disturbances to fully strike all details and=20
devices<BR><BR>> in strong <BR><BR>> perfect order? I'm=
all=20
ears,.....who can answer<BR><BR>> this. <BR><BR>> Usual=
ly=20
when one die is broken and damaged and the<BR><BR>> other is per=
fect,=20
<BR><BR>> then under the striking pressure,.....the=20
finished<BR><BR>> product, the side <BR><BR>> with the=
=20
perfect die will not strike up<BR><BR>>=20
completely,.........<BR><BR>> So if there were no reverse J hubb=
ing,=20
then how can<BR><BR>> my 34 latest, <BR><BR>> broken di=
e=20
state exist with a "Perfect" no<BR><BR>> imperfections, but yet,=
=20
<BR><BR>> extremely strong all detail reverse? I have=20
never<BR><BR>> seen another 34-J <BR><BR>> paired in th=
is=20
die state,.......!!!!<BR><BR>> We should explore the possibiliti=
es=20
that perhaps,<BR><BR>> one of the New <BR><BR>> Jersey =
mints=20
may have experimented with hubbing on a<BR><BR>> couple differen=
t=20
<BR><BR>> varieties,..................wouldn't it stand=20
to<BR><BR>> reason that a die <BR><BR>> cutter of Jerse=
y=20
coppers would probably know that<BR><BR>> some Connecticuts=20
<BR><BR>> were being hubbed,......especially if they were=20
tied<BR><BR>> to Buell?<BR><BR>> MARIO<BR><BR>>=
;=20
<BR><BR>>=20
<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________=
___<BR><BR>Do=20
you Yahoo!?<BR><BR>Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus"=20
Sweepstakes<BR><BR><a<BR>href=3D"<A=20
href=3D"http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus">http://hotjobs=
.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus</A>"><A=20
href=3D"http://hotjobs.swee">http://hotjobs.swee</A><BR>pstakes.yahoo.com=
/signingbonus</a><BR><BR></tt><BR><BR><BR><BR><br><=
BR><tt><hr=20
width=3D"500"><BR><b>Yahoo! Groups=20
Links</b><br><BR><ul><BR><li>To visit your group =
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the web, go to:<br><a<BR>href=3D"<A=20
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