[Colonial Numismatics] WHERE NEW JERSEY COPPERS HUBBED??????

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From: "mario" <mariobyrge@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] WHERE NEW JERSEY COPPERS HUBBED??????
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Well Mr. Palmer and all who disagree:;
As I chatted to Roger, I cannot post pictures,.........however, with no dis=
respect, you phrase the word,....."meanningless without pictures" As resear=
ch goes, one must be open to all areas of suggestions, theories and possibi=
lities,.........but as I see,.......many of you do not want to upgrade thes=
e chats that I present,........but rather downgrade my opinions,..........j=
ust like the old days,............if one says fine, then all must agree,...=
.......well, research goes in every direction! I am not faulting this chat =
group,.......I understand that there are some current New Jersey research g=
oing on and a couple big collections may be comming onto the market in the =
near future, so I perfectly understand that I am bringing up some "Challeng=
ing" accusations and a few of you feel that it is inpropriate at this point=
. One individual in this group emailed me privately saying that after what =
research is going on now and then finished, then he will discuss my writtin=
gs about opinions. Yes, Don P. was pretty upset that Ford beat him to the d=
raw on auctioning his (Ford) collection,...........hell, why not take advan=
tage of the current market and the interest demands "now". The only group r=
esponse is from Roger whom I have the upmost respect for,.......he communic=
ates his opinions,........this is way this group should work,........work t=
ogether instead of that almighty "B_ _ S_ _ _ of a group of individuals try=
ing to dominate this area of collecting,........hell, we all should take up=
collecting guitars and Led Zepplin music,.........., hell,.even throw in a=
little Sammy Hager and Alice Cooper,...............this is what gets the at=
tention,.........obviously, theories and possibilities of a educational for=
um like chatting about colonials, dies and hubs,......minters and die cutte=
rs,......christ, that may get to complicated. Yes, I seem alittle irritated=
on the response to some of my stories,.......so why cover-up or change the=
topic for what,.to suit a couple hot-shot Jersey collectors,.......now tha=
t is pure BULLS_ _T
Mario
----- Original Message -----=20
From: palmers4@erols.com=20
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] WHERE NEW JERSEY COPPERS HUBBED??????

Roger, Without pictures, this discussion is TOTALLY academic, and therefo=
r
meaningless. David

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Roger Moore rogermoore435@yahoo.com
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 14:31:27 -0800 (PST)
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] WHERE NEW JERSEY COPPERS HUBBED??????

<html><body>

<tt>
Mario, I hate to bring up other possibilities but two 
that jump out are 1) contemporary re-engraving of the 
die when it began to wear out, which I would expect 
should show some widening of the lines and differences 
between pre and post re-engraving, and 2) the non 
contemporanious re-engraving of the coin for 
fraudulent purposes, which I have seen on two coins 
(not J reverses) which typically come with the split 
grade. Do you have a picture of your coin? Roger 
 
 
--- Mario Byrge <mariobyrge@comcast.net> wrote: 
> WHERE NEW JERSEY COPPERS HUBBED? According to the 
> researchers,..the 
> answer is "no"! Connecticuts, 1786 at this time were 
> hubbed. Were 
> Fugios?,.........In England, the Brits were using 
> hubs,......so why 
> weren't the New Jerseys? Yes, to all, I read Mike 
> Hooders work on 
> Reverse J,.......but by practical 
> standpoint,...........who can 
> explain why a Maris obverse 34 in the latest of die 
> states,....nearly 
> cracked in thirds was continued in striking with a 
> early reverse J. 
> I own a highend VERY FINE just this 
> way,..........the obverse is in 
> the most severest die state while yet, the reverse 
> is the earliest 
> die state,.....no dissruption on the 
> shield,........full lettering 
> and shield lines,........so how can this be 
> explained. Is it 
> practical that a obverse die, in a deteriorated die 
> state,..swollen, 
> broken in several places and ready for the scrap 
> pile still strike 
> with the pressures to a reverse that has no 
> deteriation or 
> disturbances to fully strike all details and devices 
> in strong 
> perfect order? I'm all ears,.....who can answer 
> this. 
> Usually when one die is broken and damaged and the 
> other is perfect, 
> then under the striking pressure,.....the finished 
> product, the side 
> with the perfect die will not strike up 
> completely,......... 
> So if there were no reverse J hubbing, then how can 
> my 34 latest, 
> broken die state exist with a "Perfect" no 
> imperfections, but yet, 
> extremely strong all detail reverse? I have never 
> seen another 34-J 
> paired in this die state,.......!!!! 
> We should explore the possibilities that perhaps, 
> one of the New 
> Jersey mints may have experimented with hubbing on a 
> couple different 
> varieties,..................wouldn't it stand to 
> reason that a die 
> cutter of Jersey coppers would probably know that 
> some Connecticuts 
> were being hubbed,......especially if they were tied 
> to Buell? 
> MARIO 
> 
> 
 
 
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<DIV>Well Mr. Palmer and all who disagree:;</FO=
NT></DIV>
<DIV>As I chatted to Roger, I cannot post=20
pictures,.........however, with no disrespect, you phrase the=20
word,....."meanningless without pictures" As research goes, one must be ope=
n to=20
all areas of suggestions, theories and possibilities,.........but as I=20
see,.......many of you do not want to upgrade these chats that I=20
present,........but rather downgrade my opinions,..........just like the ol=
d=20
days,............if one says fine, then all must agree,..........well, rese=
arch=20
goes in every direction! I am not faulting this chat group,.......I underst=
and=20
that there are some current New Jersey research going on and a couple big=20
collections may be comming onto the market in the near future, so I perfect=
ly=20
understand that I am bringing up some "Challenging" accusations and a few o=
f you=20
feel that it is inpropriate at this point. One individual in this group ema=
iled=20
me privately saying that after what research is going on now and then finis=
hed,=20
then he will discuss my writtings about opinions. Yes, Don P. was pret=
ty=20
upset that Ford beat him to the draw on auctioning his (Ford)=20
collection,...........hell, why not take advantage of the current mark=
et=20
and the interest demands "now". The only group response is from R=
oger=20
whom I have the upmost respect for,.......he communicates his=20
opinions,........this is way this group should work,........work together=20
instead of that almighty "B_ _ S_ _ _ of a group of individuals trying to=20
dominate this area of collecting,........hell, we all should take up collec=
ting=20
guitars and Led Zepplin music,.........., hell,.even throw in alittle Sammy=
=20
Hager and Alice Cooper,...............this is what gets the=20
attention,.........obviously, theories and possibilities of a educational f=
orum=20
like chatting about colonials, dies and hubs,......minters and die=20
cutters,......christ, that may get to complicated. Yes, I seem alittle irri=
tated=20
on the response to some of my stories,.......so why cover-up or change the =
topic=20
for what,.to suit a couple hot-shot Jersey collectors,.......now that is pu=
re=20
BULLS_ _T</DIV>
<DIV>Mario</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LE=
FT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">Fro=
m:=20
<A title=3Dpalmers4@erols.com=20
href=3D"mailto:palmers4@erols.com">palmers4@erols.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">To: <A=20
title=3Dcolonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups=
.com</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 =
7:30=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics=
] WHERE=20
NEW JERSEY COPPERS HUBBED??????</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><TT>Roger, Without pictures, this discussion is TOTALLY=20
academic, and therefor meaningless. David Original=20
Message: ----------------- From: Roger Moore <A=20
href=3D"mailto:rogermoore435@yahoo.com">rogermoore435@yahoo.com</A> Da=
te:=20
Wed, 14 Jan 2004 14:31:27 -0800 (PST) To: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups=
.com</A> Subject:=20
Re: [Colonial Numismatics] WHERE NEW JERSEY COPPERS=20
HUBBED?????? <html><body> <tt><BR=
>Mario, =20
I hate to bring up other possibilities but two that jump out=
are=20
1) contemporary re-engraving of the die when it began to wea=
r=20
out, which I would expect should show some widening of the l=
ines=20
and differences between pre and post re-engraving, and 2) th=
e=20
non contemporanious re-engraving of the coin=20
for fraudulent purposes, which I have seen on two=20
coins (not J reverses) which typically come with the=20
split grade. Do you have a picture of your=20
coin? Roger --- Mari=
o=20
Byrge <mariobyrge@comcast.net> wrote: > WHERE NEW J=
ERSEY=20
COPPERS HUBBED? According to the > researchers,..the=20
 > answer is "no"! Connecticuts, 1786 at this time=20
were > hubbed. Were > Fugios?,.........I=
n=20
England, the Brits were using > hubs,......so why=20
 > weren't the New Jerseys? Yes, to all, I read=20
Mike > Hooders work on > Reverse J,.....=
..but=20
by practical > standpoint,...........who can=20
 > explain why a Maris obverse 34 in the latest of=20
die > states,....nearly > cracked in thi=
rds=20
was continued in striking with a > early reverse=20
J. > I own a highend VERY FINE just this >=
;=20
way,..........the obverse is in > the most severest die =
state=20
while yet, the reverse > is the earliest &g=
t;=20
die state,.....no dissruption on the > shield,........ful=
l=20
lettering > and shield lines,........so how can this=20
be > explained. Is it > practical that a=
=20
obverse die, in a deteriorated die > state,..swollen,=20
 > broken in several places and ready for the=20
scrap > pile still strike > with the=20
pressures to a reverse that has no > deteriation or=20
 > disturbances to fully strike all details and=20
devices > in strong > perfect order? I'm=
all=20
ears,.....who can answer > this. > Usual=
ly=20
when one die is broken and damaged and the > other is per=
fect,=20
 > then under the striking pressure,.....the=20
finished > product, the side > with the=
=20
perfect die will not strike up >=20
completely,......... > So if there were no reverse J hubb=
ing,=20
then how can > my 34 latest, > broken di=
e=20
state exist with a "Perfect" no > imperfections, but yet,=
=20
 > extremely strong all detail reverse? I have=20
never > seen another 34-J > paired in th=
is=20
die state,.......!!!! > We should explore the possibiliti=
es=20
that perhaps, > one of the New > Jersey =
mints=20
may have experimented with hubbing on a > couple differen=
t=20
 > varieties,..................wouldn't it stand=20
to > reason that a die > cutter of Jerse=
y=20
coppers would probably know that > some Connecticuts=20
 > were being hubbed,......especially if they were=20
tied > to Buell? > MARIO >=
;=20
 >=20
 _______________________________=
___ Do=20
you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus"=20
Sweepstakes <a href=3D"<A=20
href=3D"http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus">http://hotjobs=
.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus</A>"><A=20
href=3D"http://hotjobs.swee">http://hotjobs.swee</A> pstakes.yahoo.com=
/signingbonus</a> </tt> <=
BR><tt><hr=20
width=3D"500"> Yahoo! Groups=20
Links <ul> <li>To visit your group =
on=20
the web, go to: <a href=3D"<A=20
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lonial-coins/</a> <li>To=20
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2004-01-14

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