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From: "mario" <mariobyrge@comcast.net>
Subject: Can Anyone Explain the Legitimacy of Maris 81-ll,....84-kk,....85-nn
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To put it simply, can anyone explain the accepted last Maris numbers, Maris=
81-ll,......84-kk and 85-nn,. as "Legitimate" coins within this series?
Will the C-4 and the New Jersey Symposium ever rewrite to delist these as =
legitimate issues? What do you think JPL and Ray W?,........Several months =
ago, I had requested a photocopy of the unique Maris 85-nn from Ray. After =
a few weeks, he had sent me a copy of the picture of this mysterious coin t=
hat currently resides in Bill Antons collection. According to Bill Anton, t=
his coin is "new" to the New Jersery census,..........and who else, but Bil=
l authenticated this specific coin? The answer, I believe that it was Bill =
himself,........self appointed authenticator. Lets take a close look at th=
ese 3 Maris numbers and what can we say about each one of them.
1.) Maris 81-ll,......2 known to this date! The appearence of the horse is =
a dead give away to the amateurish design that incorporates this obverse, t=
he plow, can be characterise with near percission that is this was made fro=
m a casted mould, then the minter could have impressed the plow with a "wis=
hbone" from a chicken breast, further, the denticles on the reverse are sla=
nted, their points do not point deirectly in to the design like all others,=
..a common occurence of either a forger or perhaps a die cutter without a s=
teady hand.
2.)Maris 84-kk,......2 known to this date! first, the obverse denticles are=
spaced further apart then anyother Maris number. The horse looks very good=
and its ears are somewhat "concial" in shape, well so is obverse 36,..but =
the jaw is puffy and rounded with the nose protruding out,....looks like a=
"gun",..........but the plow, well, a chicken wishbone gives off a much mo=
re realistic impression,.....so saying this, this obverse die really was th=
e work of true inexperience. the reverse is very mysterious and that the "R=
" in PLURIBUS is retrograded, thus meanning, backwards. No another aspect u=
nder enlagement of the reverse clearly shows the the retrograded "R" was pr=
obably an "I" punched into a very soft die, ie: brass, copper or playdough,=
......then scribed, pay close attention to the loop of the "R" and the stan=
ce,.extremely thin unlike the backbone of that letter, thus compared to the=
series, a inconsistant design as well.
3.) Antons unique Maris 85-nn: ......1 known to this date. This coin if you=
enlarge the photograph of it, then carefully examine it, you will definitl=
y find the strongest of comparison to the camelhead Maris 57-n variety. Th=
is Maris variety is considered a contemporay counterfeit and has been accep=
ted, I will not argue that point, but, I feel that there were 2 types of p=
lanchets that they struck this coin with,.first a rolled copper strip then =
cut into planchets,......secondly, casted planchets,...weight variations ar=
e the most widest of all in this series,.........however, a contemporay cou=
nterfeit that it is. Now the unique Maris 85-nn is nothing more than a grap=
hical recut and damaged die. This type of die can be made easily with a cas=
ted mould of this obverse and reverse, simply impress a 57-nn into a jewele=
rs mould, then cut and recut the design until desired satisfaction,........=
.voi-la,......a 85-nn,...............Logically, there would be no way in he=
ll, that the 57-n and the 85-nn were made at the same mint at the same time=
,.........also, the reverse"nn" would never logically be paired with a 57,.=
......even by a countefeiters standard, a dead give away and could never ha=
ve been passed as a new variety legitimately,..............
So, can one determine that the Maris 81-ll and the Maris 84-kk were produce=
d during the rightful period when this series was being struck? The answer,=
unlikely,........the facts,.........BOTH SHOW UNDERTYPES THAT ARE CLEAR AN=
D DISTINCTED a perfect factor of a forgerer to use a planchet of the proper=
time period so that it would pass only the specific gravity test,.........=
..so could these two Maris coins be classified in the 1850 to 1890 era? Pos=
sibly, this accounts for the extremely poor and crude designs and how about=
Bill's Maris 85-nn in the same 1850 to 1890 era? No way,.....why?,........=
because not even your most knowledegable New Jersey specialist in the 19th =
century could ever rationalize it's existance,............the similarities =
are so so close that it would have been impossible to produce two coins , e=
ach varying in opposite direction of each other but yet, extremely close wi=
th diagnostics to confirm these similarities,.............Mr. Bill,........=
....I think somehow that your expertising skills have slipped somewhere!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Of course, just my humble opinion
mario
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Ray Williams=20
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 6:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Slabbed NJ on ebay
I agree with David,
I've always liked the ears on the 6 obverse, with the eye placed like=
a cyclops. Something that a child would sketch. The positioning of the S=
is cool too.
Ray
=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: palmers4@erols.com=20
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 1:32 AM
Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] Slabbed NJ on ebay
Absolutely, YOU! DP
Original Message:
-----------------
From: buellish buell@vectrafitness.com
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 04:51:18 -0000
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Slabbed NJ on ebay
<html><body>
<tt>
Greetings,<BR>
Item #3916348774 is a Maris 6-D in an NGC AU-53 slab. Looks about VF-<B=
R>
25 to me. Who is closer? Me or NGC?<BR>
Buell<BR>
<BR>
<a
href=3D"http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/e=
BayISAP
I.dll?</a><BR>
ViewItem&category=3D528&item=3D3916348774&rd=3D1<BR>
<BR>
</tt>
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>To put it simply, can anyone explain the a=
ccepted=20
last Maris numbers, Maris 81-ll,......84-kk and 85-nn,. as "Legitimate=
"=20
coins within this series?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Will the C-4 and the New Jersey Symposium&=
nbsp;=20
ever rewrite to delist these as legitimate issues? What do you think JPL an=
d Ray=20
W?,........Several months ago, I had requested a photocopy of the unique Ma=
ris=20
85-nn from Ray. After a few weeks, he had sent me a copy of the picture of =
this=20
mysterious coin that currently resides in Bill Antons collection. According=
to=20
Bill Anton, this coin is "new" to the New Jersery census,..........and who =
else,=20
but Bill authenticated this specific coin? The answer, I believe that it wa=
s=20
Bill himself,........self appointed authenticator. Lets take a close =
look=20
at these 3 Maris numbers and what can we say about each one of=20
them.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1.) Maris 81-ll,......2 known to this date=
! The=20
appearence of the horse is a dead give away to the amateurish design that=20
incorporates this obverse, the plow, can be characterise with near percissi=
on=20
that is this was made from a casted mould, then the minter could have impre=
ssed=20
the plow with a "wishbone" from a chicken breast, further, the denticles on=
the=20
reverse are slanted, their points do not point deirectly in to the design l=
ike=20
all others,..a common occurence of either a forger or perhaps a die cutter=
=20
without a steady hand.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2.)Maris 84-kk,......2 known to this date!=
first,=20
the obverse denticles are spaced further apart then anyother Maris number. =
The=20
horse looks very good and its ears are somewhat "concial" in shape, well so=
is=20
obverse 36,..but the jaw is puffy and rounded with the nose protrudin=
g=20
out,....looks like a "gun",..........but the plow, well, a chicken wishbone=
=20
gives off a much more realistic impression,.....so saying this, this obvers=
e die=20
really was the work of true inexperience. the reverse is very mysterious an=
d=20
that the "R" in PLURIBUS is retrograded, thus meanning, backwards. No anoth=
er=20
aspect under enlagement of the reverse clearly shows the the retrograded "R=
" was=20
probably an "I" punched into a very soft die, ie: brass, copper or=20
playdough,......then scribed, pay close attention to the loop of the "R" an=
d the=20
stance,.extremely thin unlike the backbone of that letter, thus compared to=
the=20
series, a inconsistant design as well.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>3.) Antons unique Maris 85-nn: ......1 kno=
wn to=20
this date. This coin if you enlarge the photograph of it, then carefully ex=
amine=20
it, you will definitly find the strongest of comparison to the camelhead Ma=
ris=20
57-n variety. This Maris variety is considered a contemporay counterf=
eit=20
and has been accepted, I will not argue that point, but, I feel that =
there=20
were 2 types of planchets that they struck this coin with,.first a rolled c=
opper=20
strip then cut into planchets,......secondly, casted planchets,...weight=20
variations are the most widest of all in this series,.........however, a=20
contemporay counterfeit that it is. Now the unique Maris 85-nn is nothing m=
ore=20
than a graphical recut and damaged die. This type of die can be made easily=
with=20
a casted mould of this obverse and reverse, simply impress a 57-nn into a=20
jewelers mould, then cut and recut the design until desired=20
satisfaction,.........voi-la,......a 85-nn,...............Logically, there =
would=20
be no way in hell, that the 57-n and the 85-nn were made at the same mint a=
t the=20
same time,.........also, the reverse"nn" would never logically be paired wi=
th a=20
57,.......even by a countefeiters standard, a dead give away and could neve=
r=20
have been passed as a new variety legitimately,..............</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>So, can one determine that the Maris 81-ll=
and the=20
Maris 84-kk were produced during the rightful period when this series was b=
eing=20
struck? The answer, unlikely,........the facts,.........BOTH SHOW UNDERTYPE=
S=20
THAT ARE CLEAR AND DISTINCTED a perfect factor of a forgerer to use a planc=
het=20
of the proper time period so that it would pass only the specific gravity=20
test,...........so could these two Maris coins be classified in the 1850 to=
1890=20
era? Possibly, this accounts for the extremely poor and crude designs and h=
ow=20
about Bill's Maris 85-nn in the same 1850 to 1890 era? No=20
way,.....why?,........because not even your most knowledegable New Jersey=20
specialist in the 19th century could ever rationalize it's=20
existance,............the similarities are so so close that it would have b=
een=20
impossible to produce two coins , each varying in opposite direction of eac=
h=20
other but yet, extremely close with diagnostics to confirm these=20
similarities,.............Mr. Bill,............I think somehow that your=20
expertising skills have slipped somewhere!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Of course, just my humble opinion</FONT></=
DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>mario</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LE=
FT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>Fro=
m:</B>=20
<A title=3Dnjraywms@optonline.net href=3D"mailto:njraywms@optonline.net">=
Ray=20
Williams</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Dcolonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups=
.com</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June 10, 2004 6:46=
=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Colonial Numismatics=
]=20
Slabbed NJ on ebay</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I agree with David,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> I've always liked the=
ears on=20
the 6 obverse, with the eye placed like a cyclops. Something that a=
=20
child would sketch. The positioning of the S is cool too.</FONT></D=
IV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ray</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<CENTER><IMG alt=3DWow! src=3D"http://www.ebwcoin.com/s/s204-l.JPG"> <BR>=
<IMG=20
alt=3DOoooohhhh... src=3D"http://www.ebwcoin.com/s/s204-o.JPG"> <IMG=20
alt=3DAaaaahhhh... src=3D"http://www.ebwcoin.com/s/s204-r.JPG">=20
</CENTER></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-=
LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>F=
rom:</B>=20
<A title=3Dpalmers4@erols.com=20
href=3D"mailto:palmers4@erols.com">palmers4@erols.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Dcolonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogrou=
ps.com</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June 10, 2004 1:=
32=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Colonial Numismati=
cs]=20
Slabbed NJ on ebay</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><TT>Absolutely, YOU! DP<BR><BR>Original=20
Message:<BR>-----------------<BR>From: buellish <A=20
href=3D"mailto:buell@vectrafitness.com">buell@vectrafitness.com</A><BR>=
Date:=20
Thu, 10 Jun 2004 04:51:18 -0000<BR>To: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogrou=
ps.com</A><BR>Subject:=20
[Colonial Numismatics] Slabbed NJ on=20
ebay<BR><BR><BR><html><body><BR><BR><BR><tt><BR>Greet=
ings,<BR><BR>Item=20
#3916348774 is a Maris 6-D in an NGC AU-53 slab. Looks about=20
VF-<BR><BR>25 to me. Who is closer? Me or=20
NGC?<BR><BR>Buell<BR><BR><BR><BR><a<BR>href=3D"<A=
=20
href=3D"http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/e=
BayISAPI.dll?</A>"><A=20
href=3D"http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAP">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA=
P</A><BR>I.dll?</a><BR><BR>ViewItem&category=3D528&item=
=3D3916348774&rd=3D1<BR><BR><BR><BR></tt><BR><BR><BR>=
<br><BR><BR><!--=20
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