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- From mariobyrge@comcast.net Thu Jun 10 07:36:54 2004
Return-Path: <mariobyrge@comcast.net> X-Sender: mariobyrge@comcast.net X-Apparently-To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 52593 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2004 14:36:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jun 2004 14:36:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sccrmhc13.comcast.net) (204.127.202.64) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jun 2004 14:36:53 -0000 Received: from computer (bgp01097770bgs.warn1201.mi.comcast.net[68.43.146.39]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <200406101355550160082jrhe>; Thu, 10 Jun 2004 13:55:55 +0000 Message-ID: <001201c44efa$4744d3a0$27922b44@warn1201.mi.comcast.net> To: <colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com> References: <187300-2200464105322358@M2W085.mail2web.com> <101601c44ee0$92db6870$f2fea8c0@DIANEJ33YVI95P> Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 09:50:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C44ED0.5E3C7100" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 204.127.202.64 From: "mario" <mariobyrge@comcast.net> Subject: Can Anyone Explain the Legitimacy of Maris 81-ll,....84-kk,....85-nn X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=160753362 X-Yahoo-Profile: jsuis2003
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To put it simply, can anyone explain the accepted last Maris numbers, Maris= 81-ll,......84-kk and 85-nn,. as "Legitimate" coins within this series? Will the C-4 and the New Jersey Symposium ever rewrite to delist these as = legitimate issues? What do you think JPL and Ray W?,........Several months = ago, I had requested a photocopy of the unique Maris 85-nn from Ray. After = a few weeks, he had sent me a copy of the picture of this mysterious coin t= hat currently resides in Bill Antons collection. According to Bill Anton, t= his coin is "new" to the New Jersery census,..........and who else, but Bil= l authenticated this specific coin? The answer, I believe that it was Bill = himself,........self appointed authenticator. Lets take a close look at th= ese 3 Maris numbers and what can we say about each one of them. 1.) Maris 81-ll,......2 known to this date! The appearence of the horse is = a dead give away to the amateurish design that incorporates this obverse, t= he plow, can be characterise with near percission that is this was made fro= m a casted mould, then the minter could have impressed the plow with a "wis= hbone" from a chicken breast, further, the denticles on the reverse are sla= nted, their points do not point deirectly in to the design like all others,= ..a common occurence of either a forger or perhaps a die cutter without a s= teady hand. 2.)Maris 84-kk,......2 known to this date! first, the obverse denticles are= spaced further apart then anyother Maris number. The horse looks very good= and its ears are somewhat "concial" in shape, well so is obverse 36,..but = the jaw is puffy and rounded with the nose protruding out,....looks like a= "gun",..........but the plow, well, a chicken wishbone gives off a much mo= re realistic impression,.....so saying this, this obverse die really was th= e work of true inexperience. the reverse is very mysterious and that the "R= " in PLURIBUS is retrograded, thus meanning, backwards. No another aspect u= nder enlagement of the reverse clearly shows the the retrograded "R" was pr= obably an "I" punched into a very soft die, ie: brass, copper or playdough,= ......then scribed, pay close attention to the loop of the "R" and the stan= ce,.extremely thin unlike the backbone of that letter, thus compared to the= series, a inconsistant design as well. 3.) Antons unique Maris 85-nn: ......1 known to this date. This coin if you= enlarge the photograph of it, then carefully examine it, you will definitl= y find the strongest of comparison to the camelhead Maris 57-n variety. Th= is Maris variety is considered a contemporay counterfeit and has been accep= ted, I will not argue that point, but, I feel that there were 2 types of p= lanchets that they struck this coin with,.first a rolled copper strip then = cut into planchets,......secondly, casted planchets,...weight variations ar= e the most widest of all in this series,.........however, a contemporay cou= nterfeit that it is. Now the unique Maris 85-nn is nothing more than a grap= hical recut and damaged die. This type of die can be made easily with a cas= ted mould of this obverse and reverse, simply impress a 57-nn into a jewele= rs mould, then cut and recut the design until desired satisfaction,........= .voi-la,......a 85-nn,...............Logically, there would be no way in he= ll, that the 57-n and the 85-nn were made at the same mint at the same time= ,.........also, the reverse"nn" would never logically be paired with a 57,.= ......even by a countefeiters standard, a dead give away and could never ha= ve been passed as a new variety legitimately,.............. So, can one determine that the Maris 81-ll and the Maris 84-kk were produce= d during the rightful period when this series was being struck? The answer,= unlikely,........the facts,.........BOTH SHOW UNDERTYPES THAT ARE CLEAR AN= D DISTINCTED a perfect factor of a forgerer to use a planchet of the proper= time period so that it would pass only the specific gravity test,.........= ..so could these two Maris coins be classified in the 1850 to 1890 era? Pos= sibly, this accounts for the extremely poor and crude designs and how about= Bill's Maris 85-nn in the same 1850 to 1890 era? No way,.....why?,........= because not even your most knowledegable New Jersey specialist in the 19th = century could ever rationalize it's existance,............the similarities = are so so close that it would have been impossible to produce two coins , e= ach varying in opposite direction of each other but yet, extremely close wi= th diagnostics to confirm these similarities,.............Mr. Bill,........= ....I think somehow that your expertising skills have slipped somewhere!!!!= !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Of course, just my humble opinion mario
----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ray Williams=20 To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 6:46 AM Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Slabbed NJ on ebay
I agree with David, I've always liked the ears on the 6 obverse, with the eye placed like= a cyclops. Something that a child would sketch. The positioning of the S= is cool too. Ray
=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20
----- Original Message -----=20 From: palmers4@erols.com=20 To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 1:32 AM Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] Slabbed NJ on ebay
Absolutely, YOU! DP
Original Message: ----------------- From: buellish buell@vectrafitness.com Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 04:51:18 -0000 To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Slabbed NJ on ebay
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<tt> Greetings,<BR> Item #3916348774 is a Maris 6-D in an NGC AU-53 slab. Looks about VF-<B= R> 25 to me. Who is closer? Me or NGC?<BR> Buell<BR> <BR> <a href=3D"http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/e= BayISAP I.dll?</a><BR> ViewItem&category=3D528&item=3D3916348774&rd=3D1<BR> <BR> </tt>
<br>
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a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colonial-coins/ =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: colonial-coins-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Servi= ce.=20
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1"= > <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>To put it simply, can anyone explain the a= ccepted=20 last Maris numbers, Maris 81-ll,......84-kk and 85-nn,. as "Legitimate= "=20 coins within this series?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Will the C-4 and the New Jersey Symposium&= nbsp;=20 ever rewrite to delist these as legitimate issues? What do you think JPL an= d Ray=20 W?,........Several months ago, I had requested a photocopy of the unique Ma= ris=20 85-nn from Ray. After a few weeks, he had sent me a copy of the picture of = this=20 mysterious coin that currently resides in Bill Antons collection. According= to=20 Bill Anton, this coin is "new" to the New Jersery census,..........and who = else,=20 but Bill authenticated this specific coin? The answer, I believe that it wa= s=20 Bill himself,........self appointed authenticator. Lets take a close = look=20 at these 3 Maris numbers and what can we say about each one of=20 them.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1.) Maris 81-ll,......2 known to this date= ! The=20 appearence of the horse is a dead give away to the amateurish design that=20 incorporates this obverse, the plow, can be characterise with near percissi= on=20 that is this was made from a casted mould, then the minter could have impre= ssed=20 the plow with a "wishbone" from a chicken breast, further, the denticles on= the=20 reverse are slanted, their points do not point deirectly in to the design l= ike=20 all others,..a common occurence of either a forger or perhaps a die cutter= =20 without a steady hand.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2.)Maris 84-kk,......2 known to this date!= first,=20 the obverse denticles are spaced further apart then anyother Maris number. = The=20 horse looks very good and its ears are somewhat "concial" in shape, well so= is=20 obverse 36,..but the jaw is puffy and rounded with the nose protrudin= g=20 out,....looks like a "gun",..........but the plow, well, a chicken wishbone= =20 gives off a much more realistic impression,.....so saying this, this obvers= e die=20 really was the work of true inexperience. the reverse is very mysterious an= d=20 that the "R" in PLURIBUS is retrograded, thus meanning, backwards. No anoth= er=20 aspect under enlagement of the reverse clearly shows the the retrograded "R= " was=20 probably an "I" punched into a very soft die, ie: brass, copper or=20 playdough,......then scribed, pay close attention to the loop of the "R" an= d the=20 stance,.extremely thin unlike the backbone of that letter, thus compared to= the=20 series, a inconsistant design as well.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>3.) Antons unique Maris 85-nn: ......1 kno= wn to=20 this date. This coin if you enlarge the photograph of it, then carefully ex= amine=20 it, you will definitly find the strongest of comparison to the camelhead Ma= ris=20 57-n variety. This Maris variety is considered a contemporay counterf= eit=20 and has been accepted, I will not argue that point, but, I feel that = there=20 were 2 types of planchets that they struck this coin with,.first a rolled c= opper=20 strip then cut into planchets,......secondly, casted planchets,...weight=20 variations are the most widest of all in this series,.........however, a=20 contemporay counterfeit that it is. Now the unique Maris 85-nn is nothing m= ore=20 than a graphical recut and damaged die. This type of die can be made easily= with=20 a casted mould of this obverse and reverse, simply impress a 57-nn into a=20 jewelers mould, then cut and recut the design until desired=20 satisfaction,.........voi-la,......a 85-nn,...............Logically, there = would=20 be no way in hell, that the 57-n and the 85-nn were made at the same mint a= t the=20 same time,.........also, the reverse"nn" would never logically be paired wi= th a=20 57,.......even by a countefeiters standard, a dead give away and could neve= r=20 have been passed as a new variety legitimately,..............</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>So, can one determine that the Maris 81-ll= and the=20 Maris 84-kk were produced during the rightful period when this series was b= eing=20 struck? The answer, unlikely,........the facts,.........BOTH SHOW UNDERTYPE= S=20 THAT ARE CLEAR AND DISTINCTED a perfect factor of a forgerer to use a planc= het=20 of the proper time period so that it would pass only the specific gravity=20 test,...........so could these two Maris coins be classified in the 1850 to= 1890=20 era? Possibly, this accounts for the extremely poor and crude designs and h= ow=20 about Bill's Maris 85-nn in the same 1850 to 1890 era? No=20 way,.....why?,........because not even your most knowledegable New Jersey=20 specialist in the 19th century could ever rationalize it's=20 existance,............the similarities are so so close that it would have b= een=20 impossible to produce two coins , each varying in opposite direction of eac= h=20 other but yet, extremely close with diagnostics to confirm these=20 similarities,.............Mr. Bill,............I think somehow that your=20 expertising skills have slipped somewhere!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Of course, just my humble opinion</FONT></= DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>mario</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LE= FT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>Fro= m:</B>=20 <A title=3Dnjraywms@optonline.net href=3D"mailto:njraywms@optonline.net">= Ray=20 Williams</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20 title=3Dcolonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20 href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups= .com</A>=20 </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June 10, 2004 6:46= =20 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Colonial Numismatics= ]=20 Slabbed NJ on ebay</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I agree with David,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> I've always liked the= ears on=20 the 6 obverse, with the eye placed like a cyclops. Something that a= =20 child would sketch. The positioning of the S is cool too.</FONT></D= IV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ray</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> <CENTER><IMG alt=3DWow! src=3D"http://www.ebwcoin.com/s/s204-l.JPG"> <BR>= <IMG=20 alt=3DOoooohhhh... src=3D"http://www.ebwcoin.com/s/s204-o.JPG"> <IMG=20 alt=3DAaaaahhhh... src=3D"http://www.ebwcoin.com/s/s204-r.JPG">=20 </CENTER></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-= LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>F= rom:</B>=20 <A title=3Dpalmers4@erols.com=20 href=3D"mailto:palmers4@erols.com">palmers4@erols.com</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20 title=3Dcolonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20 href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogrou= ps.com</A>=20 </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June 10, 2004 1:= 32=20 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Colonial Numismati= cs]=20 Slabbed NJ on ebay</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><TT>Absolutely, YOU! DP<BR><BR>Original=20 Message:<BR>-----------------<BR>From: buellish <A=20 href=3D"mailto:buell@vectrafitness.com">buell@vectrafitness.com</A><BR>= Date:=20 Thu, 10 Jun 2004 04:51:18 -0000<BR>To: <A=20 href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogrou= ps.com</A><BR>Subject:=20 [Colonial Numismatics] Slabbed NJ on=20 ebay<BR><BR><BR><html><body><BR><BR><BR><tt><BR>Greet= ings,<BR><BR>Item=20 #3916348774 is a Maris 6-D in an NGC AU-53 slab. Looks about=20 VF-<BR><BR>25 to me. Who is closer? Me or=20 NGC?<BR><BR>Buell<BR><BR><BR><BR><a<BR>href=3D"<A= =20 href=3D"http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/e= BayISAPI.dll?</A>"><A=20 href=3D"http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAP">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA= P</A><BR>I.dll?</a><BR><BR>ViewItem&category=3D528&item= =3D3916348774&rd=3D1<BR><BR><BR><BR></tt><BR><BR><BR>= <br><BR><BR><!--=20 |**|begin egp html banner|**| --><BR><BR><table border=3D0 cellsp= acing=3D0=20 cellpadding=3D2><BR><tr bgcolor=3D#FFFFCC><BR><td=20 align=3Dcenter><font size=3D"-1" color=3D#003399><b>Yaho= o!=20 Groups<BR>Sponsor</b></font></td><BR></tr><BR>&= lt;tr=20 bgcolor=3D#FFFFFF><BR><td align=3Dcenter width=3D470><table= border=3D0=20 cellpadding=3D0 cellspacing=3D0><BR><tr> <td=20 align=3Dcenter><font face=3Darial=20 size=3D-2>ADVERTISEMENT</font><br><a<BR>href=3D"<A=20 href=3D"http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=3D129ek3a8r/M=3D298184.5022502.6152625.= 3001176/D=3Dg">http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=3D129ek3a8r/M=3D298184.5022502.61526= 25.3001176/D=3Dg</A><BR>roups/S=3D1705062367:HM/EXP=3D1086929499/A=3D216433= 0/R=3D0/SIG=3D11eamf8g4/*<A=20 href=3D"http://www">http://www</A><BR>.netflix.com/Default?mqso=3D60183= 350"=20 alt=3D""><img<BR>src=3D"<A=20 href=3D"http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ne/netflix/yhoo0504_testa_3= 00250a05">http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ne/netflix/yhoo0504_testa_300= 250a05</A><BR>2604.gif"=20 alt=3D"click here" width=3D"300"=20 height=3D"250"<BR>border=3D"0"></a></td></tr></= table>=20 </td><BR></tr><BR><tr><td><img alt=3D"" widt= h=3D1=20 height=3D1<BR>src=3D"<A=20 href=3D"http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=3D298184.5022502.6152625.30011= 76/D=3Dgroup">http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=3D298184.5022502.6152625.300= 1176/D=3Dgroup</A><BR>s/S=3D:HM/A=3D2164330/rand=3D162437373"></td>= ;</tr><BR></table><BR><BR><!--=20 |**|end egp html banner|**| --><BR><BR><BR><BR><!-- |**|begin egp= html=20 banner|**| --><BR><BR><br><BR><tt><hr=20 width=3D"500"><BR><b>Yahoo! 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