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From: James Spilman <CNLF@Comcast.net>
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Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 = English Evasion
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JOHN -- et al
The URL to the Blacksmiths eSIG is
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BlacksmithTokens/
If someone is not now a member, just click on "Join this group".
Jim/CNLF
---------------------------------------------
John Lorenzo wrote:
> I did send my W33 specimens to Morris awhile back when we were
> discussing the W33/Evasion attribution and at that point I mentioned
> the legend change from the Blacksmith Wood reference and the Baker
> confirmation discussion of 1995 from BITIT to BRTIT. Remember - this
> legend was BITIT for 85 years - lets be patient here - lets see what
> Morris has after looking at my W33's and what he had in his
> collection - I may have closed the door a bit too quickly here - on
> other possibilities. My collection is able to viewed as Jim S. has
> mentioned if anyone cares to view a good size group of W33's at the
> Yahoo-Blacksmith Chat Room site. I am sure you can contact JS as he
> likes to add members to E-Sig groups - right Jim <BG>.
>
>
>
> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "John Lorenzo" <jlorenzo@...>
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Clem - the one thing I CAN NOT answer here is - Is there
>>
> more
>
>> than one die therefore creating more than one legend variation? I
>> was always working under the assumption it was only ONE particular
>> Britain abbreviation with only one working die or if you will only
>> one die marriage when I reported this finding to Baker in 2/1995. I
>> think? Morris's work may have extended this to several? die
>>
> marriages
>
>> or die states which may be confusing the overall picture or people
>> not seeing anything close to an R. I really do not think its die
>> state as its probably more of a specimen preservation issue if its
>> indeed only one obverse and one reverse die for W33. You really
>>
> need
>
>> to have a good Wood 33 - almost XF+/AU minimally to see the R - my
>> 2Cents anyway. This whole investigation needs further work.
>>
>>
>>
>> --- In colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com, "Clement V. Schettino"
>> <copperclem@> wrote:
>>
>>> Hang in there John. I'm not totally sure about what else you're
>>>
>> saying here
>>
>>> or even if we're talking about the same thing, but the example
>>>
> I'm
>
>> looking
>>
>>> at has the "other" angled upright to the R, clear enough for me.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Clem
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _____
>>>
>>> From: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com [mailto:colonial-
>>>
>> coins@yahoogroups.com]
>>
>>> On Behalf Of John Lorenzo
>>> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 12:25 PM
>>> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 = English Evasion
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Look first for the presence of die polishing lines on the tops of
>>> the letters ... then proceed to your interpretation of BRITAIN.
>>>
> If
>
>>> the die polishing lines are not present with a loop it may either
>>>
>> be
>>
>>> another die (i.e., we would expect more than one die marriage
>>> marriage here - particularly after the situation when Ringo try
>>>
> to
>
>>> sell me 150 W33 examples in one transaction in the 90's which
>>> eventaully went to a Maine Collector) or the grade may not be
>>>
> high
>
>>> enough on the correct die to see the faint images to complete the
>>> word BRTIT. Keep digging ... on the most common R1 Evasion. In
>>>
> may
>
>>> be that this is the only R1 Evasion known ... right Morris?
>>>
>>> --- In colonial-coins@ <mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com>
>>> yahoogroups.com, "j.howes" <j.howes@> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't see any indication of an R. So, I would like to see
>>>>
>>> somone post an
>>>
>>>> image that shows an early die state.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Oliver D. Hoover" <oliver.hoover@>
>>>> To: <colonial-coins@ <mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com>
>>>>
>>> yahoogroups.com>
>>>
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:36 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 = English Evasion
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You can make out the slight tail of the R on my example too.
>>>>
>>>> Oliver
>>>>
>>>> On 21-Jan-08, at 11:34 AM, B B wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Here's an image from the Blacksmiths site folder.
>>>>>
>>>>> BB
>>>>> --- B B <rlbcomuser@> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> All;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of the five pieces I have lying around here at home
>>>>>> two have remnants of the foot or tail on the R.
>>>>>> They
>>>>>> are not really high grade examples so I would assume
>>>>>> they are early die states. The legend definately
>>>>>> reads BRTIT., So its undoubtably evasive. The
>>>>>> mystery
>>>>>> is the predominance of species in North America.
>>>>>> This is most unusual for an evasion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for the rocks, pillows or clowds, everything on
>>>>>> both central devices is kind of rounded and
>>>>>> indistinct
>>>>>> and I just assumed that was the engravers style.
>>>>>> Makes for a somewaht pleasing although Yogi Berra
>>>>>> looking Geoge III bust.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't have images of these early ststes at this
>>>>>> point, but could get them tomorrow if there is an
>>>>>> interest.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- "Oliver D. Hoover" <oliver.hoover@>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It makes me think of a really lame attempt to
>>>>>>> imitate the rocks on
>>>>>>> the 1722 Hibernia pattern. Of course, I have no
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> idea
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> why someone
>>>>>>> might do such a thing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oliver
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 21-Jan-08, at 9:33 AM, j.howes wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Clem,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OK I'll bite. I attached an image of my Wood
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> 33.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Its a pretty
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> high grade also. In fact I am interested in
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> seeing any images of
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> better ones. Also can you post the image you
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> mention that shows
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the die may have been lapped. I have never seen
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> any other die
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> states but I can't say that I have looked at
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> more
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> than a few of these.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think the "pile of ambergris" as you pungently
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> put it looks like
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> a pile of rocks to me or maybe a bag of clouds
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: Clement V. Schettino
>>>>>>>> To: colonial-coins@ <mailto:colonial-coins%
>>>>>>>>
> 40yahoogroups.com>
>
>>> yahoogroups.com
>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 8:46 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 =
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> English Evasion
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hey Jack,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Oh well, I guess if I want someone to "talk" to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'll have to "talk"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> about this ;-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree that it does not look like an `R' on
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> your
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> piece Jack or my
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> piece (attached). And mine also sports that
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> little
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> perpendicular
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> from the upright that yours shows intimating a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> `P'.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But I do have an image in my files which pretty
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> clearly shows at
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> one time, probably before the die was polished
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> or
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> lapped that it
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> was in fact an `R'.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My question is. what's that pile of ambergris on
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Britannia's back
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> is supposed to represent?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Clem
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: colonial-coins@ <mailto:colonial-coins%
>>>>>>>>
>> 40yahoogroups.com>
>>
>>> yahoogroups.com
>>>
>>>>>>> [mailto:colonial-
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> coins@yahoogroups. <mailto:coins%40yahoogroups.com> com]
>>>>>>>>
> On
>
>> Behalf Of
>>
>>> j.howes
>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 9:34 AM
>>>>>>>> To: colonial-coins@ <mailto:colonial-coins%
>>>>>>>>
> 40yahoogroups.com>
>
>>> yahoogroups.com
>>>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 =
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> English Evasion
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Morris,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> See the attached closeup of the reverse legend.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> don't think the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2nd letter is a either a T or an I. Looks more
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> like an F or maybe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> a P to me. Definitely not an R.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: Morris Hankins
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To: colonial-coins@ <mailto:colonial-coins%
>>>>>>>>
> 40yahoogroups.com>
>
>>> yahoogroups.com
>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 2:20 PM
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Wood 33 =
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> English Evasion
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Phil, for some time now I have been putting off
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> writing a paper on
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> this particular coin. Somehow or another, I was
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> under the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> impression that Oliver Hoover was submitting a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> paper to CNL on this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have examined numerous specimens on this coin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> including two from
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> JPL, one from ODH, and several from others as
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> well
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> as my own.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Based on my observations of these, I assigned
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cobwright numbers G.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 0899./B.0099 to the coin with the obverse being
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gloriuvs III Vis
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and the reverse being Btiti. Bitit is totally
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrong in my opinion;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> specifically when observing the "I" on the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> obverse. This "I"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> matches the bases of the third and fifth letters
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> on the reverse;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> thus Btiti.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The misspellings in the legends are simply
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> errors
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> due to someone
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> not knowing how to spell, which was quite common
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> in those times.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Or he was drunk or hung-over. The Btiti of the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> reverse probably
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> started out to be BRITISH which was 'royally'
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> bollixed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Two examples showed the possibility of the 'L'
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gloriuvs possibly
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> being an 'E', thus possibly being Georiuvs. One
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> of these that
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> showed this was JPL's example which is the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> highest
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> graded 'Wood 33'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> known. The ones described as being BRTIT on the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> reverse that I
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> have seen, appear to be a metal flow problem and
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> nothing else.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Trying to squeeze an 'R' in simply doesn't work.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In summation, these are English Evasions
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> imported
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> into the Canada
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and the U.S. and were well circulated in the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Northeast states.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> === message truncated ===
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> __________________________________________________________
>>> _
>>>
>>>>> ______________
>>>>> Be a better friend, newshound, and
>>>>> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://
>>>>> mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <b95c.jpg>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>
>>>>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
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<tt>JOHN -- et al<br>
<br>
The URL to the Blacksmiths eSIG is <br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BlacksmithTokens/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BlacksmithTokens/</a><br>
<br>
If someone is not now a member, just click on "Join this group".<br>
<br>
Jim/CNLF<br>
<br>
---------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
<br>
</tt><br>
John Lorenzo wrote:
<blockquote cite="midfn3b7i+ulp7@eGroups.com" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I did send my W33 specimens to Morris awhile back when we were
discussing the W33/Evasion attribution and at that point I mentioned
the legend change from the Blacksmith Wood reference and the Baker
confirmation discussion of 1995 from BITIT to BRTIT. Remember - this
legend was BITIT for 85 years - lets be patient here - lets see what
Morris has after looking at my W33's and what he had in his
collection - I may have closed the door a bit too quickly here - on
other possibilities. My collection is able to viewed as Jim S. has
mentioned if anyone cares to view a good size group of W33's at the
Yahoo-Blacksmith Chat Room site. I am sure you can contact JS as he
likes to add members to E-Sig groups - right Jim <BG>.
--- In <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</a>, "John Lorenzo" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jlorenzo@..."><jlorenzo@...></a>
wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Thanks Clem - the one thing I CAN NOT answer here is - Is there
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->more
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">than one die therefore creating more than one legend variation? I
was always working under the assumption it was only ONE particular
Britain abbreviation with only one working die or if you will only
one die marriage when I reported this finding to Baker in 2/1995. I
think? Morris's work may have extended this to several? die
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->marriages
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">or die states which may be confusing the overall picture or people
not seeing anything close to an R. I really do not think its die
state as its probably more of a specimen preservation issue if its
indeed only one obverse and one reverse die for W33. You really
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->need
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">to have a good Wood 33 - almost XF+/AU minimally to see the R - my
2Cents anyway. This whole investigation needs further work.
--- In <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com</a>, "Clement V. Schettino"
<copperclem@> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hang in there John. I'm not totally sure about what else you're
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">saying here
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">or even if we're talking about the same thing, but the example
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
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