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From: John Lupia <jlupia2@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: jlupia2@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: The Durst's, was Re: [Colonial Numismatics] FW: NE XII in copper-BECKER
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John
By the way, I never read up on a Wikipedia take on the origin of a picture =
is worth a thousands words, but I can tell you this during the medieval per=
iod Walfridus, a Benedictine monk used a similar phrase about the pictures =
are the Bible of the poor illiterate, hence the phrase Biblia Pauperum. Tho=
se who could not read the Bible relied on pictures to illustrate and tell t=
he stories.=20
Now, as this applies to numismatics, if you do not know the diagnostics of =
a coin verbally and can write it out then no picture is going to help!
John
John N. Lupia III
New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon=20
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
God Bless Everyone
--- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Louis <johnwlouis@comcast.net> wrote:
> From: John Louis <johnwlouis@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: The Durst's, was Re: [Colonial Numismatics] FW: NE XII in co=
pper-BECKER
> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 8:18 PM
> John L (the other John L),=20
>=20
> I'm sorry your coin was not as you expected.
>=20
> As far as pictures vs text is concerned,=20
> I am mostly a simple guy and therefore require only a
> simple explanation on most topics.
> From time to time I am interested in topics where I cannot
> get enough information.
> If we were talking about the battle of Red Bank for
> instance, I would love to know every historical detail
> documented and also the lore and associated stories told
> from one generation to the next.
> From what direction did the Hessians attack? How did they
> retreat? Who is Jonas Cattell? What happened to Count Von
> Donop? Where exactly is his final resting place? What
> happened to the bronze field pieces that were present at
> the battle? How did the Chevaux de Fries play a major role
> in keeping the British Fleet from linking up with the
> British Army occupying Philadelphia in the fall of 1777?
> What is Fort Mud? What is Fort Billings? How much did it
> cost to ferry 1 man and a horse across the Delaware River
> from Philadelphia to Cooper's Ferry (modern day Camden,
> NJ) in the year 1776?
> In my case it largely depends on the topic. And presently I
> am well satisfied to know a little about a lot of things.
> To the statement that a photo can be deceiving, I would
> offer that well written text can be equally deceiving. It
> all depends on the intent of the writer. What does he want
> you to know? What does he keep hidden? Why? What does he
> want the reader to imagine? What is he saying by not
> saying? What conclusions does he want you to draw? Etc.?
> The bottom line is that a reader will read what he wants to
> read no matter what the text says.=20
>=20
> I prefer lots of pictures when it comes to coins and
> especially nice plates.
> When it comes to historical events and battles, I like to
> see maps and old photos and aerial photos.
> But that's just me.
> jwl
>=20
>=20
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: John Lupia=20
> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 7:33 PM
> Subject: Re: The Durst's, was Re: [Colonial
> Numismatics] FW: NE XII in copper-BECKER
>=20
>=20
> John:
>=20
> Every specialist I have ever known in museums and
> universities caution against reliance on photographs for
> any artifact, coin included. Photographs, though useful at
> times, can work the other way round and be misleading and
> present faulty information depending how how the photo was
> taken. Speaking of being taken I once paid hugely for a
> half cent through a misleading photograph. Case closed.
>=20
> the other John
>=20
> John N. Lupia III
> New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon=20
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
> God Bless Everyone
>=20
> --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Louis
> <johnwlouis@comcast.net> wrote:
>=20
> > From: John Louis <johnwlouis@comcast.net>
> > Subject: Re: The Durst's, was Re: [Colonial
> Numismatics] FW: NE XII in copper-BECKER
> > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 7:08 PM
> > where does the para-phrase "a picture is like a
> > thousand words" come from?
> > jwl
> >=20
> >=20
> > ----- Original Message -----=20
> > From: John Lupia=20
> > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
> > Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 12:24 PM
> > Subject: The Durst's, was Re: [Colonial
> Numismatics]
> > FW: NE XII in copper-BECKER
> >=20
> >=20
> > I have an antique reader from about 1800 in which
> > schoolboys penned their names on the front fly pages
> and
> > occasional lines of verse. One poem I have found
> charming,
> > amusing and illuminating.=20
> >=20
> > Thrice I did good and that I heard never
> > Once I did bad and that I heard ever.
> >=20
> > Well printed photos of coins are evidently very
> important
> > for collectors to use as exemplars comparing the
> details of
> > the coin in print to the one in hand so see where it
> falls
> > in classification. Sanford Durst made many hundreds
> of rare
> > and obscure titles in numismatic literature
> available at
> > inexpensive prices. Since the operative word is
> inexpensive
> > one should keep in mind that by definition it could
> never
> > mean expensive high quality photographic plate
> > reproduction. There anyone should know from common
> sense
> > that the main import of the value of Durst
> Publications is
> > on the texts. Although, perhaps, I am very
> fortunate, that
> > the copies of plates I have found are adequate, but,
> I
> > agree that they are far from superior.=20
> >=20
> > I am aware it is a very sensitive subject, and also
> a
> > complicated one. Images are valuable sources of
> > information. But a well written text follows the
> images
> > very closely in every detail describing what is
> visually
> > evident down to the minute detail. Poorly written
> texts do
> > not serve in this capacity and rely on the
> photographic
> > plate to express and convey what they cannot. The
> true
> > value of a numismatic author, therefore, lies in
> their
> > ability to convey well in words what is obviated by
> plates,
> > and plates, therefore only serve to enhance the text
> of a
> > well written book offering supporting visual details
> which
> > were already painted as pictures in the minds of the
> > readers from the words. As in all well written
> literature
> > authors paint pictures in the minds of readers,
> depending
> > on the genre, how much of the picture is
> deliberately left
> > to one's imagination. Consequently, well written
> > numismatic literature controls the focus of the mind
> to
> > avoid imaginative
> > fiction and provide clarity and precision in what a
> coin
> > actually looks like. Then, there are those coin
> collectors
> > that only look at the pictures and do not read the
> texts
> > and enjoy books as eye candy. Then, there ate
> connoisseurs
> > of books that enjoy every edition good and poor
> alike for
> > comparisons etc. Among the so-called numismatic
> > bibliomanics are those that only buy the best
> editions. So
> > there are many and varied levels of numismatic book
> > collecting.=20
> >=20
> > Now Sanford and Lorraine Durst have provided a
> wealth of
> > titles accessible to researchers that would make
> research
> > all the more difficult without them. In this
> capacity they
> > have served the numismatic community very well.
> Moreover,
> > they have published numerous catalogs of numismatic
> > literature also valuable to the discerning
> researcher.
> > Beyond that, they have their own research published
> which
> > also has been very valuable to researchers
> regardless of
> > how] one reviews them and in the long term they will
> be
> > shown to have devoted their lives to serving the
> numismatic
> > community as all the greats of our collective
> history.
> >=20
> > John
> >=20
> > John N. Lupia III
> > New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon=20
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
> > God Bless Everyone
> >=20
> > --- On Fri, 6/27/08, palmers4@rcn.com
> > <palmers4@rcn.com> wrote:
> >=20
> > > From: palmers4@rcn.com <palmers4@rcn.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] FW: NE XII
> in
> > copper-BECKER
> > > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > > Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 11:54 AM
> > > As evidenced by the surge in collecting Large
> Cents
> > after
> > > the publication
> > > of Penny Whinsy( the original) and the surge in
> > collecting
> > > Connecticuts
> > > after Taylor Sale, we can see the value of
> plates!
> > For all
> > > the good the
> > > Dursts may have done, they will sadly be
> remembered
> > for
> > > those two
> > > abomination reprints. David
> > >=20
> > > Original Message:
> > > -----------------
> > > From: James Spilman CNLF@Comcast.net
> > > Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 10:20:09 -0500
> > > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] FW: NE XII
> in
> > > copper-BECKER
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > All --
> > >=20
> > > The overall quality of those reprints has been
> --
> > > consistently -- poor.=20
> > > Plates are all but useless.
> > >=20
> > > Jim/CNLF
> > >=20
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > >=20
> > > palmers4@rcn.com wrote:
> > > > Steve, They did the Connecticut reprint
> you
> > speak of,
> > > as well as the last
> > > > Penny Whimsy reprint that everyone hated.
> David
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Original Message:
> > > > -----------------
> > > > From: Steve Frank taxi_steve929@yahoo.com
> > > > Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 22:21:23 -0700
> (PDT)
> > > > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] FW: NE
> XII
> > in
> > > copper-BECKER
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > this one...the plates are pretty
> sharp....are
> > they the
> > > ones who printed
> > > > that horrible connecticut book reprint???
> the
> > plates
> > > were absolutely
> > > > useless and the reason I never bought more
> than
> > a
> > > couple
> > > > connecticuts....they're almost
> impossible
> > for me
> > > to attribute to begin
> > > > with<s>
> > > >
> > > > --- On Thu, 6/26/08, palmers4@rcn.com
> > > <palmers4@rcn.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From: palmers4@rcn.com
> <palmers4@rcn.com>
> > > > Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] FW: NE
> XII
> > in
> > > copper-BECKER
> > > > To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 1:22 AM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > But due to the plates of many, they are
> almost
> > > useless. David
> > > >
> > > > Original Message:
> > > > ------------ -----
> > > > From: Steve Frank taxi_steve929@ yahoo.com
> > > > Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 22:09:27 -0700
> (PDT)
> > > > To: colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] FW: NE
> XII
> > in
> > > copper-BECKER
> > > >
> > > > it's just the plate quality i was
> refering
> > to...
> > > the books are inexpensive
> > > > and great for someone on a budget....
> > > >
> > > > --- On Wed, 6/25/08, John Lupia
> > <jlupia2@yahoo.
> > > com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From: John Lupia <jlupia2@yahoo.
> com>
> > > > Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics] FW: NE
> XII
> > in
> > > copper-BECKER
> > > > To: colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008, 2:56 PM
> > > >
> > > > Hi Steve:
> > > >
> > > > Sanford and Lorraine Durst have done much
> to
> > advance
> > > the field of
> > > > numismatics and have little or no
> recognition.=20
> > > >
> > > > John N. Lupia III
> > > > New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon=20
> > > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Roman-
> > Catholic- News/
> > > > God Bless Everyone
> > > >
> > > > --- On Wed, 6/25/08, Steve Frank
> > <taxi_steve929@
> > > yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >=20
> > > >> From: Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@
> > yahoo.com>
> > > >> Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics]
> FW: NE
> > XII in
> > > copper-BECKER
> > > >> To: colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. com
> > > >> Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008, 2:51
> PM
> > > >> durst published "becker the
> > > counterfeiter" by sir
> > > >> groge f. hill in 1995...i have
> > copy...plates are
> > > typical of
> > > >> a lower priced copy..not horrific
> > though....
> > > >>
> > > >> --- On Wed, 6/25/08, John Lupia
> > <jlupia2@yahoo.
> > > com>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> From: John Lupia <jlupia2@yahoo.
> com>
> > > >> Subject: RE: [Colonial Numismatics]
> FW: NE
> > XII in
> > > >> copper-BECKER
> > > >> To: colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. com
> > > >> Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008, 2:38
> PM
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Clem,
> > > >>
> > > >> This one's for you!
> > > >>
> > > >> Becker, Karl Wilhelm (1772-1830),
> notorious
> > forger
> > > of
> > > >> ancient and later coins, Mason, I, No.
> 6,
> > > September (1867)
> > > >> : 58c; American Journal of
> Numismatics,
> > Whole No.
> > > 93, July,
> > > >> 1881; (Frossard article) Mason, H-III,
> No.
> > 2,
> > > September
> > > >> (1881) : 42b; forger of coins at
> Frankfort,
> > > Germany from
> > > >> 1815-1825.=20
> > > >> Bibliography :=20
> > > >> Colin Narbeth, The Coin Collector=C2=A2s
> > Encyclopedia
> > > 1
> > > >> Hill, Sir George F., Becker the
> > Counterfeiter.
> > > (London;
> > > >> Spink and Son:1955). A reprint of the
> 1924
> > and
> > > 1925
> > > >> editions
> > > >>
> > > >> John N. Lupia III
> > > >> New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon=20
> > > >> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Roman-
> > Catholic-
> > > News/
> > > >> God Bless Everyone
> > > >>
> > > >> --- On Wed, 6/25/08, Clement V.
> Schettino
> > > >> <copperclem@ comcast. net>
> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>=20
> > > >>> From: Clement V. Schettino
> > <copperclem@
> > > comcast.
> > > >>>=20
> > > >> net>
> > > >>=20
> > > >>> Subject: RE: [Colonial
> Numismatics] FW:
> > NE XII
> > > in
> > > >>>=20
> > > >> copper-BECKER
> > > >>=20
> > > >>> To: colonial-coins@ yahoogroups.
> com
> > > >>> Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008,
> 2:30 PM
> > > >>> Hey Ray,
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> It's funny you should mention
> that.
> > Lately
> > > I have
> > > >>>=20
> > > >> taken
> > > >>=20
> > > >>> a fondness to the
> > > >>> Becker copies. They are casts or
> > electros with
> > > a heavy
> > > >>> plating. I find them
> > > >>> quite well done. I managed to find
> two,
> > the
> > > >>>=20
> > > >> Continental
> > > >>=20
> > > >>> Currency and the
> > > >>> Fugio. One problem was I
> didn't
> > know how
> > > many
> > > >>>=20
> > > >> different
> > > >>=20
> > > >>> Colonial types he
> > > >>> made or what constituted a
> > > "complete" set. I
> > > >>> tried to find out more about
> > > >>> him and was bewildered why I
> > couldn't find
> > > much.
> > > >>>=20
> > > >> At
> > > >>=20
> > > >>> this point I attribute
> > > >>> that to the fact that he was
> > contemporary with
> > > most of
> > > >>>=20
> > > >> us
> > > >>=20
> > > >>> so no one bothered
> > > >>> to document his activities.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I plan to research this more, his
> > activities
> > > and time
> > > >>> frames. Any help will
> > > >>> be greatly appreciated (hint,
> > hint.Mike).
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> AAR, right in the middle of my
> Becker
> > search I
> > > came
> > > >>>=20
> > > >> across
> > > >>=20
> > > >>> an eBay auction
> > > >>> simply titled "cions"
> (yes,
> > spelt
> > > like
> > > >>>=20
> > > >> that). My
> > > >>=20
> > > >>> curiosity got the better of
> > > >>> me and I opened it.WOW! Was I
> happy I
> > did.
> > > There
> > > >>>=20
> > > >> before me
> > > >>=20
> > > >>> was a "full set"
> > > >>> of Becker copies! And in an
> original
> > holder to
> > > boot!
> > > >>>=20
> > > >> Not
> > > >>=20
> > > >>> that I even knew
> > > >>> there was an "original
> > holder". Long
> > > story
> > > >>>=20
> > > >> short
> > > >>=20
> > > >>> I watched it for a week and
> > > >>> nobody bid, I got it for the
> opener.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> For now I'll just show some
> full
> > photos,
> > > no time
> > > >>>=20
> > > >> for
> > > >>=20
> > > >>> individual "coin"
> > > >>> obv/rev close-ups yet. But after I
> find
> > out a
> > > bit more
> > > >>>=20
> > > >> I
> > > >>=20
> > > >>> hope to write
> > > >>> something on the subject for C4,
> with
> > more
> > > pictures
> > > >>>=20
> > > >> and
> > > >>=20
> > > >>> specifications.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> One thing I will say, because I
> think
> > its
> > > important is
> > > >>>=20
> > > >> the
> > > >>=20
> > > >>> Pillar Dollar is
> > > >>> dated 1760, it has a crack in the
> right
> > obv
> > > field
> > > >>> horizontally. It is the
> > > >>> only specimen in my
> "set" NOT
> > marked
> > > Becker
> > > >>>=20
> > > >> on
> > > >>=20
> > > >>> the edge. I see it often on
> > > >>> eBay being offered as a genuine!
> Be
> > > warned.Beware.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> BTW, note that this package was a
> Time
> > > Magazine
> > > >>>=20
> > > >> offering,
> > > >>=20
> > > >>> "A Fourth of July
> > > >>> memento" (that's specific
> ;-).
> > I am
> > > guessing
> > > >>>=20
> > > >> it
> > > >>=20
> > > >>> was a give a way with a
> > > >>> subscription probably in 1976, the
> > > Bicentennial Year.
> > > >>> That's my guess. The
> > > >>> set is not dated. Again I am
> looking
> > for more
> > > >>>=20
> > > >> information,
> > > >>=20
> > > >>> such as does
> > > >>> anyone have a set? Has anyone seen
> one
> > before?
> > > Does
> > > >>>=20
> > > >> anyone
> > > >>=20
> > > >>> know when it was
> > > >>> distributed? Did EVERYONE throw
> > their's
> > > away!!!
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Thanks,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Clem
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> PS, I will reply with a few more
> > images.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> _____=20
> > > >>>
> > > >>> From: colonial-coins@ yahoogroups.
> com
> > > >>> [mailto:colonial- coins@
> yahoogroups.
> > com]
> > > >>> On Behalf Of Ray Williams
> > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008
> 1:10 PM
> > > >>> To: colonial-coins@ yahoogroups.
> com
> > > >>> Subject: Re: [Colonial
> Numismatics]
|
|---|
