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Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 20:52:35 -0400
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From: "David Fanning" <dfanning@columbus.rr.com>
Subject: Re: The Durst's, was Re: [Colonial Numismatics] FW: NE XII in copper-BECKER
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Hi, all--
I have to admit that I was staying out of this conversation on purpose. How=
ever, it seems to be clearing up at this point. I think Dan makes an excell=
ent point that what people are looking for in old books varies. No one is b=
uying a copy of the Frossard/Hays book to attribute large cents, for instan=
ce, and there would be far fewer buyers indeed for volumes like this were t=
hey not illustrated. The interest among collectors in provenance, which was=
practically non-existent for much of the 20th century, is now very strong,=
and being able to identify specific coins on specific plates is key to est=
ablishing such provenances.
John, I have to admit that I also misunderstood the gist of your post at fi=
rst, so I'm glad that this clarification came about. I know I certainly do =
not disparage the motivations of any of my customers, as I think you unders=
tand.
Best,
df
David F. Fanning
Numismatic Literature
PO Box 132422
Columbus, OH 43213
www.fanningbooks.com
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Freidus, Daniel=20
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 4:39 PM
Subject: RE: The Durst's, was Re: [Colonial Numismatics] FW: NE XII in co=
pper-BECKER
Sorry if I was denser than a poorly fried zeppoli. I guess my brain is st=
ill recovering from the drive to and from Memphis, about 25 hours of drivin=
g this weekend. My first time to the big paper money show there. I ran into=
Bruce Paulhamus as I was walking in and had arranged to meet Will Nipper l=
ater. Dealers with colonial paper included Tom Denly, Stu Levine, Dana Line=
tt (hadn=E2=80=99t seen him set up at a show in years), Ed Rothberg (Empori=
um), Hugh Shull, Smythe, and a number of others with bits and pieces. (and =
few with more than bits but whose names I can=E2=80=99t recall right now).=
Nice to catch up with Bruce and Will and I got to see Will=E2=80=99s new b=
ook (more on that later).
I guess I did miss the point. But I=E2=80=99d disagree. If you mean refer=
ence books, yes, some people only want 1 or 2 books and they won=E2=80=99t =
keep dealers in business but they do help. But rare book buyers may be main=
ly after pictures. They may even be looking for books without pictures tha=
t they want to own but not read. Numis lit buyers include book collectors a=
nd coin collectors. What those people want in a book might be different. So=
me of us have libraries that are mixed; some books for content, some for co=
llectability. My original =E2=80=9CState Coinages=E2=80=9D (Miller/Ryder) =
isn=E2=80=99t for the printed info. And it=E2=80=99s not for the pristine b=
inding. It=E2=80=99s for the provenance (most recent owner was some guy nam=
ed Taylor) and notes in the margins. (I thought the coins in Taylor were ov=
erpriced but I did buy a book. So I was only half wrong that day.) But I al=
so own an Ovolon reprint. And I carry a photocopy of the table of punctuati=
on and ornaments with me to shows to help narrow down the options.=20
Maybe we actually are on the same page (or at least verso and recto of t=
he same leaf).
Dan=20
From: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com [mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.c=
om] On Behalf Of John Lupia
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 3:08 PM
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: The Durst's, was Re: [Colonial Numismatics] FW: NE XII in co=
pper-BECKER
Dan
I am very surprised you of all people missed the point. Book dealers of a=
ll sorts depend on their living selling books. Their clients are obviously =
people who read more so than the eye candy crowd that only occasionally buy=
s a coffee-table variety book. In other words, as a candid inside peek at n=
umismatic literature sales there seems to be two types that buys books, one=
type to read (which typically have illustrations, rarely do numismatic boo=
ks ever come without them) these are the mainstream buyers that keep the de=
alers afloat and the other type that only want illustrations, meaning they =
are not readers or buyers of books that keep the book dealer solvent and in=
business. Apparently, the comment went over everyone's head like a lead (Z=
eppelin) balloon.=20
I apologize to David Fanning, a member of our list, for failing to mentio=
n that he did not make this comment. David is a very good fellow with whom =
I should be doing more business, but other pressing matters detain. I am mo=
re than a year over due submitting my manuscript to a publisher in Berlin, =
and personal business has been a bit overwhelming lately.
Now, Dan, you say you have a collection of old math books for the same re=
ason as I do. Which one has the earliest drawing of a coin?
As for you comment about die variety descriptions so far you, me and Byro=
n are all on the same page. Our complaint seems to be many are not written =
too carefully or clearly and make the photo more important than the text. P=
hoto and text should have about equal value, so that the photo would be not=
hing more than a difficult puzzle without a clearly written text and the te=
xt without a proper photo illustrating the points of the text makes the tex=
t less understandable. This whole thread about the photos was a tangent res=
ulting from misunderstanding what book dealers complaints are referring to =
nothing more than that business could be better if coin collectors read mor=
e and bought more books. It is better to hear Lead Zeppelin than to eat a l=
ead zeppola.
Best,
John
John N. Lupia III
New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon=20
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
God Bless Everyone
--- On Mon, 6/30/08, Freidus, Daniel <freidus@umich.edu> wrote:
> From: Freidus, Daniel <freidus@umich.edu>
> Subject: RE: The Durst's, was Re: [Colonial Numismatics] FW: NE XII in =
copper-BECKER
> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 2:34 PM
> John L (upia),
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Not all book dealers are frustrated with collectors who
> care about the illustrations. My father collected books for
> decades and I met many of his dealers either at our home or,
> on occasion, at a book show. When he hit the wall (good
> books he wanted became either too hard to find or too
> expensive), he sold them through Sotheby=E2=80=99s in a named
> sale, so I know that the auction houses weren=E2=80=99t too
> frustrated, either.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> There is no correct way to collect coins or books. Collect
> what you enjoy and can afford. Some people only want old
> books in original bindings while don=E2=80=99t care much about
> the binding. Part of my collection is late 18th-early 19th
> century math books because they illustrate the changes made
> in our monetary system. (books into the 1830s still referred
> to accounting of official state currency values and how to
> convert to value in federal currenc!). If I cared about
> condition, my collection of those early schoolbooks would
> be virtually nonexistent. But I draw the line and reject
> those that have new 20th century bindings on them.=20
> Completely arbitrary but that=E2=80=99s how I do it.=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> And most books with written die variety descriptions are
> much less clear than those with good photos. I prefer a mix
> of both, but given my experience I=E2=80=99d choose photos over
> words if I had to choose. I hope that=E2=80=99s okay.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Dan F.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> From: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John
> Lupia
> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 9:26 PM
> To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: The Durst's, was Re: [Colonial
> Numismatics] FW: NE XII in copper-BECKER
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I have been guarding a gem of info many of you should
> actually know and hear. For some of us it is very funny,
> for others, I guess it is a snide blow. I have been an avid
> buyer of rare books for over thirty years, more like forty,
> and through these years I know every major dealer around
> the world. The point is that on more than one occasion
> talking with them, especially, and I emphasize especially
> numismatic literature dealers, they are extremely
> frustrated with clients like you, and I really do not mean
> to pick on you John, who are what they call the
> "picture book people" as if you are still
> children in elementary school who rely on illustrated
> editions of Bunny Sees.
>=20
> If you do not verbally know the diagnostic of a coin and
> know how to write it, I repeat, I doubt any photo would do
> you any good. As I said from the first that photos merely
> enhance and support the text which should always be
> foremost the primary matter of book.
>=20
> John N. Lupia III
> New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon=20
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
> God Bless Everyone
=20=20=20
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi, all--</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have to admit that I was staying out of =
this=20
conversation on purpose. However, it seems to be clearing up at this point.=
I=20
think Dan makes an excellent point that what people are looking for in old =
books=20
varies. No one is buying a copy of the Frossard/Hays book to attribute larg=
e=20
cents, for instance, and there would be far fewer buyers indeed for volumes=
like=20
this were they not illustrated. The interest among collectors in provenance=
,=20
which was practically non-existent for much of the 20th century, is now ver=
y=20
strong, and being able to identify specific coins on specific plates is key=
to=20
establishing such provenances.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>John, I have to admit that I also misunder=
stood the=20
gist of your post at first, so I'm glad that this clarification came about.=
I=20
know I certainly do not disparage the motivations of any of my customers, a=
s I=20
think you understand.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Best,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>df</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>David F. Fanning<BR>Numismatic Literature<=
BR>PO Box=20
132422<BR>Columbus, OH 43213<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.fanningbooks.com">www.fanningbooks.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LE=
FT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>Fro=
m:</B>=20
<A title=3Dfreidus@umich.edu href=3D"mailto:freidus@umich.edu">Freidus, D=
aniel</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Dcolonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=20
href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@yahoogroups=
.com</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 30, 2008 4:39 P=
M</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: The Durst's, was Re:=
=20
[Colonial Numismatics] FW: NE XII in copper-BECKER</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV id=3Dygrp-text>
<P>
<DIV class=3DSection1>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Sorr=
y if I=20
was denser than a poorly fried zeppoli. I guess my brain is still recover=
ing=20
from the drive to and from Memphis, about 25 hours of driving this weeken=
d. My=20
first time to the big paper money show there. I ran into Bruce Paulhamus =
as I=20
was walking in and had arranged to meet Will Nipper later. Dealers with=20
colonial paper included Tom Denly, Stu Levine, Dana Linett (hadn=E2=80=99=
t seen him=20
set up at a show in years), Ed Rothberg (Emporium), Hugh Shull, Smythe, a=
nd a=20
number of others with bits and pieces. (and few with more than bits=
but=20
whose names I can=E2=80=99t recall right now). Nice to catch up with Bruc=
e and Will=20
and I got to see Will=E2=80=99s new book (more on that later).<O></O></SP=
AN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"><O></O></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">I gu=
ess I did=20
miss the point. But I=E2=80=99d disagree. If you mean reference books, ye=
s, some=20
people only want 1 or 2 books and they won=E2=80=99t keep dealers in busi=
ness but they=20
do help. But rare book buyers may be mainly after pictures. They may even=
=20
be looking for books without pictures that they want to own but not=
=20
read. Numis lit buyers include book collectors and coin collectors. What =
those=20
people want in a book might be different. Some of us have libraries that =
are=20
mixed; some books for content, some for collectability. My original=
=20
=E2=80=9CState Coinages=E2=80=9D (Miller/Ryder) isn=E2=80=99t for the pri=
nted info. And it=E2=80=99s not for=20
the pristine binding. It=E2=80=99s for the provenance (most recent owner =
was some guy=20
named Taylor) and notes in the margins. (I thought the coins in Taylor we=
re=20
overpriced but I did buy a book. So I was only half wrong that day.) But =
I=20
also own an Ovolon reprint. And I carry a photocopy of the table of=20
punctuation and ornaments with me to shows to help narrow down the option=
s.=20
<O></O></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"><O></O></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Mayb=
e=20
we actually are on the same page (or at least verso and recto of th=
e=20
same leaf).<O></O></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"><O></O></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Dan=
=20
<O></O></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"><O></O></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><=
SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> colonial-coins@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com=20
[mailto:colonial-<WBR>coins@yahoogroup<WBR>s.com] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Joh=
n=20
Lupia<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 30, 2008 3:08 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
colonial-coins@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: The Durst=
's,=20
was Re: [Colonial Numismatics] FW: NE XII in=20
copper-BECKER<O></O></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><O></O></P>
<DIV id=3Dygrp-mlmsg>
<DIV id=3Dygrp-msg>
<DIV id=3Dygrp-text>
<P>Dan<BR><BR>I am very surprised you of all people missed the point. Boo=
k=20
dealers of all sorts depend on their living selling books. Their clients =
are=20
obviously people who read more so than the eye candy crowd that only=20
occasionally buys a coffee-table variety book. In other words, as a candi=
d=20
inside peek at numismatic literature sales there seems to be two types th=
at=20
buys books, one type to read (which typically have illustrations, rarely =
do=20
numismatic books ever come without them) these are the mainstream buyers =
that=20
keep the dealers afloat and the other type that only want illustrations,=
=20
meaning they are not readers or buyers of books that keep the book dealer=
=20
solvent and in business. Apparently, the comment went over everyone's hea=
d=20
like a lead (Zeppelin) balloon. <BR><BR>I apologize to David Fanning, a m=
ember=20
of our list, for failing to mention that he did not make this comment. Da=
vid=20
is a very good fellow with whom I should be doing more business, but othe=
r=20
pressing matters detain. I am more than a year over due submitting my=20
manuscript to a publisher in Berlin, and personal business has been a bit=
=20
overwhelming lately.<BR><BR>Now, Dan, you say you have a collection of ol=
d=20
math books for the same reason as I do. Which one has the earliest drawin=
g of=20
a coin?<BR><BR>As for you comment about die variety descriptions so far y=
ou,=20
me and Byron are all on the same page. Our complaint seems to be many are=
not=20
written too carefully or clearly and make the photo more important than t=
he=20
text. Photo and text should have about equal value, so that the photo wou=
ld be=20
nothing more than a difficult puzzle without a clearly written text and t=
he=20
text without a proper photo illustrating the points of the text makes the=
text=20
less understandable. This whole thread about the photos was a tangent=20
resulting from misunderstanding what book dealers complaints are referrin=
g to=20
nothing more than that business could be better if coin collectors read m=
ore=20
and bought more books. It is better to hear Lead Zeppelin than to eat a l=
ead=20
zeppola.<BR><BR>Best,<BR>John<BR><BR>John N. Lupia III<BR>New Jersey, USA=
;=20
Beirut, Lebanon <BR><A=20
href=3D"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/">http://groups=
.<WBR>yahoo.com/<WBR>group/Roman-<WBR>Catholic-<WBR>News/</A><BR>God=20
Bless Everyone<BR><BR>--- On Mon, 6/30/08, Freidus, Daniel <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:freidus%40umich.edu">freidus@umich.<WBR>edu</A>>=20
wrote:<BR><BR>> From: Freidus, Daniel <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:freidus%40umich.edu">freidus@umich.<WBR>edu</A>><BR>>=
;=20
Subject: RE: The Durst's, was Re: [Colonial Numismatics] FW: NE XII in=20
copper-BECKER<BR>> To: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@<WBR>yaho=
ogroups.<WBR>com</A><BR>>=20
Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 2:34 PM<BR>> John L (upia),<BR>> <BR>&=
gt;=20
<BR>> <BR>> Not all book dealers are frustrated with collectors=20
who<BR>> care about the illustrations. My father collected books=20
for<BR>> decades and I met many of his dealers either at our home=20
or,<BR>> on occasion, at a book show. When he hit the wall (good<BR>&g=
t;=20
books he wanted became either too hard to find or too<BR>> expensive),=
he=20
sold them through Sotheby=E2=80=99s in a named<BR>> sale, so I know th=
at the=20
auction houses weren=E2=80=99t too<BR>> frustrated, either.<BR>> <B=
R>>=20
<BR>> <BR>> There is no correct way to collect coins or books.=20
Collect<BR>> what you enjoy and can afford. Some people only want=20
old<BR>> books in original bindings while don=E2=80=99t care much abou=
t<BR>> the=20
binding. Part of my collection is late 18th-early 19th<BR>> century ma=
th=20
books because they illustrate the changes made<BR>> in our monetary sy=
stem.=20
(books into the 1830s still referred<BR>> to accounting of official st=
ate=20
currency values and how to<BR>> convert to value in federal currenc!).=
If I=20
cared about<BR>> condition, my collection of those early schoolbooks=20
would<BR>> be virtually nonexistent. But I draw the line and reject<BR=
>>=20
those that have new 20th century bindings on them. <BR>> Completely=20
arbitrary but that=E2=80=99s how I do it. <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>=
> And most=20
books with written die variety descriptions are<BR>> much less clear t=
han=20
those with good photos. I prefer a mix<BR>> of both, but given my=20
experience I=E2=80=99d choose photos over<BR>> words if I had to choos=
e. I hope=20
that=E2=80=99s okay.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Dan F.<BR>> <B=
R>>=20
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> From: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@<WBR>yaho=
ogroups.<WBR>com</A><BR>>=20
[mailto:<A=20
href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@<WBR>yaho=
ogroups.<WBR>com</A>]=20
On Behalf Of John<BR>> Lupia<BR>> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 9:26=
=20
PM<BR>> To: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins%40yahoogroups.com">colonial-coins@<WBR>yaho=
ogroups.<WBR>com</A><BR>>=20
Subject: Re: The Durst's, was Re: [Colonial<BR>> Numismatics] FW: NE X=
II in=20
copper-BECKER<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> I have been guarding a g=
em of=20
info many of you should<BR>> actually know and hear. For some of us it=
is=20
very funny,<BR>> for others, I guess it is a snide blow. I have been a=
n=20
avid<BR>> buyer of rare books for over thirty years, more like=20
forty,<BR>> and through these years I know every major dealer=20
around<BR>> the world. The point is that on more than one occasion<BR>=
>=20
talking with them, especially, and I emphasize especially<BR>> numisma=
tic=20
literature dealers, they are extremely<BR>> frustrated with clients li=
ke=20
you, and I really do not mean<BR>> to pick on you John, who are what t=
hey=20
call the<BR>> "picture book people" as if you are still<BR>> childr=
en in=20
elementary school who rely on illustrated<BR>> editions of Bunny=20
Sees.<BR>> <BR>> If you do not verbally know the diagnostic of a co=
in=20
and<BR>> know how to write it, I repeat, I doubt any photo would do<BR=
>>=20
you any good. As I said from the first that photos merely<BR>> enhance=
and=20
support the text which should always be<BR>> foremost the primary matt=
er of=20
book.<BR>> <BR>> John N. Lupia III<BR>> New Jersey, USA; Beirut,=
=20
Lebanon <BR>> <A=20
href=3D"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/">http://groups=
.<WBR>yahoo.com/<WBR>group/Roman-<WBR>Catholic-<WBR>News/</A><BR>>=20
God Bless Everyone<O></O></P></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: white"></SPAN><O></O></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
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