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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:53:03 -0700 (PDT)
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From: Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Indian counterfeiters? WAS: Important NJ Discovery - Botched V Punch
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Wasn't it theorized that Indians made the punches used in the early Charles=
and Johanna pieces at the first Spanish American mint in Mexico City? They=
weren't talentless in the art like I would be.<s>
=A0
________________________________
From: marc <marcm@sunflower.com>
To: colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 4:15:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Indian counterfeiters? WAS: Important N=
J Discovery - Botched V Punch
=A0=20
Oliver,
There are a=A0few references to conquered Indian tribes counterfeiting thei=
r own Spanish coins.=A0It is tough to image where they got the punches.
=A0I wrote a little article concerning some of this for the C4 journal but =
I think it got sidelined, or wasn't good enough<s>
The cob guy, Mendel Sewell (?) claimed thye could smelt their own silver.
Marc
----- Original Message -----=20
>From: Oliver D. Hoover=20
>To: colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. com=20
>Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 10:20
>Subject: [Colonial Numismatics] Indian counterfeiters? WAS: Important NJ D=
iscovery - Botched V Punch
>
>=A0=20
>The reason I ask is that I have been on and off working on =A0a chapter ab=
out money and Native Americans =A0for my study of the French and Indian War=
s period. From such evidence as I have been able to assemble, it looks like=
most Indians (even those with long close contacts with the French and Angl=
o-Americans) still had very little use for coins (as money) well into the 1=
750s. While they might appreciate them as objects suitable for personal ado=
rnment (i.e. pierced for necklaces), they seem not to have understood their=
use in European-style commerce which was completely alien to most traditio=
nal native modes of exchange. Bearing this in mind, I think it is unlikely =
that by the1780s many Indians had become so well-attuned to European moneta=
ry ways that (assuming a copper supply) they could have set up counterfeiti=
ng operations. Besides, how would they have obtained screw presses?=A0=20
>
>
>Oliver
>
>
>
>On 23-Sep-09, at 11:38 AM, Rand! y Clark wrote:
>
>
>>
>>LOL !
>>
>>Well, I am ashamed to say I did not consider it as a serious
>>consideration, so narrow mindedness is always at hand. It
>>depends on what we all think it takes to get something up
>>and running (equipment wise) ... and the availability of raw
>>materials. The raw materials, at least in my research, was
>>the biggest constraint on state copper production. Many
>>of the state mints melted brass/bronze/ copper ... which
>>the native Americans were likely in short supply of. The
>>alternatives of reusing existing host coins, smelting local ore
>>or stealing federal copper ... native Americans would also
>>likely have been ! at a disadvantage getting access to. Only
>>Americans were allowed to steal federal copper.
>>
>>
>>
>>On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Oliver D. Hoover=A0<oliver.hoover@ sympa=
tico. ca>=A0wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>It always comes down to blaming the Canadians, doesn't it? =A0I'm going =
to remember you said that Randy, after the conquest is complete.=20
>>>
>>>
>>>I assume that you are also joking about the American Indian angle. Right=
?
>>>
>>>Oliver
>>>
>>>
>>>On 23-Sep-09, at 11:18 AM, Randy Clark wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Another interesting idea. But a thread I'd like to see pursued is
>>>>clandestine minting by regional American Indian tribes. Think
>>>>about it. Who had a bigger "axe" to grind than the indigienous
>>>>population ? Since federal land had not yet been allocated to
>>>>casinos, perhaps enterprising tribes made state colonials and=A0
>>>>dumped them on the local market. And, since England was
>>>>responsible for much of their troubles, they could have made=A0
>>>>George II or III coppers for distribution offshore as well.
>>>>
>>>>Or maybe it was ... ssshhh ... the Canadians.=A0
>>>>
>>>>The point is ... all of this is like Monty Python's "Argument Clinic".
>>>>It's all contradiction to some, and good fun for others, but there is
>>>>not a lot of evidence anywhere to make hard conclusions about
>>>>"who! done it". Yet.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 a t 8:02 AM, John Lupia=A0<jlupia2@yahoo. com>=A0w=
rote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Randy
>>>>>
>>>>>Besides State Mints how about Mexican Mints. After all, it has been pr=
oposed they made Lion Dollars. Why not state coppers as well. ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>>John N. Lupia III
>>>>>New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon=A0
>>>>>http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Roman- Catholic- News/
>>>>>God Bless Everyone
>>>>>
>>>>>--- On=A0Wed, 9/23/09, Randy! Clark=A0<centsitive@gmail. com>=A0wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>From: Randy Clark <centsitive@gmail. com>=20
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Important NJ Discovery - Botched =
V Punch
>>>>>>
>>>>>>To:=A0colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. com
>>>>>>Date: Wednesday, September 23, 2009, 10:45 AM=20
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Wow.=A0
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The list of British invasions gets bigger yet. In addition to the Rev=
olution, 1812 and the Beatles,
>>>>>>we now were clandestinely invaded with colonial state coppers. Crude =
ones, no less ... which
>>>>>>made them much different than the local colonial state co! ppers. An =
interesting idea, but hard
>>>>>>to see where the economics wou ld make any freaking sense to off shor=
e makers, who would
>>>>>>have to pay shipping costs to dump cheap coppers into a mark crowded =
with cheap coppers.
>>>>>>But hey ... who said counterfeiter had brains ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 7:37 AM, Byron=A0<bkw11@psu.edu>=A0wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Hi Steve,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I predict that one day American "Colonial" collectors will have to w=
rap their minds around the fact that a few of those crude NJ and CT coppers=
were actually imports from Great Britain or Ireland, and not the product o=
f some clandestine American mint.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Byron
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>--- In=A0colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. com, Steve Frank <taxi_steve92=
9@ ...> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Didn't Conder tokens make their way here? It could have been the o=
ther way around too. I agree with Byron's thoughts on most collectors wanti=
ng to believe everything they own is "Made in the USA"<s>, but even though =
the probabilities show this coin as being a British product, without proof,=
the owners can imagine whatever they wish.....and usually do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ____________ _________ _________ __
>>>>>>>> From: Ray Williams <njraywms@...>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To:=A0colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. com
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:54:29 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Important NJ Discovery - Botch=
ed V Punch
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> =A0
>>>>>>>> Oliver,
>>>>>>>> &n! bsp;=A0=A0=A0Because the Auctori Plebis reverse is muled with =
other Conder Tokens, it appears that the design of the token was imitated f=
rom that of a CT Copper and struck in England.=A0
>>>>>>>> Ray
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: Oliver D. Hoover
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:06 AM
>>>>>>>> To: colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. com
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Important NJ Discovery - Botch=
ed V Punch
>>>>>>>> =A0
>>>>>>>> Randy,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was wondering the same thing about the possible relationship bet=
ween the Auctori Plebis pieces and the CT series.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Oliver
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 22-Sep-09, at 5:24 PM, Randy Clark wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >Byron ... is there now evidence Auctori Plebis is foreign made ? =
It could equally be
>>>>>>>> >considered a colonial issue in the absence of contrary evidence. =
In fact, I was
>>>>>>>> >looking closely at them for a while to see if it could have been =
a CT product,
>>>>>>>> >born of boredom or an attempt t! o skirt an ever tightening noose=
of local coinage
>>>>>>>> >restrictions. I am curious what others have learned to support fo=
reign minting ...
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>------------ --------- --------- ------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;=
font-size:14pt"><DIV>Wasn't it theorized that Indians made the punches used=
in the early Charles and Johanna pieces at the first Spanish American mint=
in Mexico City? They weren't talentless in the art like I would be.<s&g=
t;</DIV>
<DIV><BR> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SI=
ZE: 14pt"><BR>
<DIV style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid; MARGIN: 5px 0px 5px 5px; PADD=
ING-LEFT: 5px; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-S=
IZE: 12pt"><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma>
<HR SIZE=3D1>
<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> marc <marcm@sunflo=
wer.com><BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> colonial=
-coins@yahoogroups.com<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN>=
</B> Wednesday, September 23, 2009 4:15:53 PM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEI=
GHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Indian counterfei=
ters? WAS: Important NJ Discovery - Botched V Punch<BR></FONT><BR><SPAN sty=
le=3D"DISPLAY: none"> </SPAN>=20
<DIV id=3Dygrp-text>
<P>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Oliver,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>There are a few references to conquer=
ed Indian tribes counterfeiting their own Spanish coins. It is tough t=
o image where they got the punches.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial> I wrote a little article concerning =
some of this for the C4 journal but I think it got sidelined, or wasn't goo=
d enough<s></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>The cob guy, Mendel Sewell (?) claimed thy=
e could smelt their own silver.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Marc</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid" dir=3Dltr>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A title=
=3Doliver.hoover@sympatico.ca href=3D"mailto:oliver.hoover@sympatico.ca" re=
l=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:oliver.hoover@sympatico.ca">=
Oliver D. Hoover</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dcolonial-coins@yahoog=
roups.com href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com" rel=3Dnofollow tar=
get=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com">colonial-coi=
ns@ yahoogroups. com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 23, 2009 =
10:20</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Colonial Numismatics] Indi=
an counterfeiters? WAS: Important NJ Discovery - Botched V Punch</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><SPAN> </SPAN>=20
<DIV id=3Dygrp-text>
<P>The reason I ask is that I have been on and off working on a chapt=
er about money and Native Americans for my study of the French and In=
dian Wars period. From such evidence as I have been able to assemble, it lo=
oks like most Indians (even those with long close contacts with the French =
and Anglo-Americans) still had very little use for coins (as money) well in=
to the 1750s. While they might appreciate them as objects suitable for pers=
onal adornment (i.e. pierced for necklaces), they seem not to have understo=
od their use in European-style commerce which was completely alien to most =
traditional native modes of exchange. Bearing this in mind, I think it is u=
nlikely that by the1780s many Indians had become so well-attuned to Europea=
n monetary ways that (assuming a copper supply) they could have set up coun=
terfeiting operations. Besides, how would they have obtained screw presses?=
=20
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Oliver<BR>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On 23-Sep-09, at 11:38 AM, Rand! y Clark wrote:</DIV><BR class=3DApple=
-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-VARIANT: normal; FONT-STYLE: =
normal; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica=
; LETTER-SPACING: normal; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: medium; FONT-WEIGHT=
: normal" class=3DApple-style-span><BR><BR>LOL !<BR><BR>Well, I am ashamed =
to say I did not consider it as a serious<BR>consideration, so narrow minde=
dness is always at hand. It<BR>depends on what we all think it takes to get=
something up<BR>and running (equipment wise) ... and the availability of r=
aw<BR>materials. The raw materials, at least in my research, was<BR>the big=
gest constraint on state copper production. Many<BR>of the state mints melt=
ed brass/bronze/ copper ... which<BR>the native Americans were likely in sh=
ort supply of. The<BR>alternatives of reusing existing host coins, smelting=
local ore<BR>or stealing federal copper ... native Americans would also<BR=
>likely have been ! at a disadvantage getting access to. Only<BR>Americans
were allowed to steal federal copper.<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Oliver D. Hoover<=
SPAN class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN><SPAN dir=3Dltr><<A href=
=3D"mailto:oliver.hoover@sympatico.ca" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymail=
to=3D"mailto:oliver.hoover@sympatico.ca">oliver.hoover@ sympatico. ca</A>&g=
t;</SPAN><SPAN class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN>wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid" class=3Dgmail=
_quote>
<DIV><BR><BR>It always comes down to blaming the Canadians, doesn't it? &nb=
sp;I'm going to remember you said that Randy, after the conquest is complet=
e.=20
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I assume that you are also joking about the American Indian angle. Rig=
ht?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT color=3D#888888>
<DIV>Oliver</DIV></FONT>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dh5>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On 23-Sep-09, at 11:18 AM, Randy Clark wrote:</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><SPAN style=3D"TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT-VARIANT=
: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; =
FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; LETTER-SPACING: normal; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-WEI=
GHT: normal"><BR><BR>Another interesting idea. But a thread I'd like to see=
pursued is<BR>clandestine minting by regional American Indian tribes. Thin=
k<BR>about it. Who had a bigger "axe" to grind than the indigienous<BR>popu=
lation ? Since federal land had not yet been allocated to<BR>casinos, perha=
ps enterprising tribes made state colonials and<SPAN> </SPAN><BR>dumpe=
d them on the local market. And, since England was<BR>responsible for much =
of their troubles, they could have made<SPAN> </SPAN><BR>George II or =
III coppers for distribution offshore as well.<BR><BR>Or maybe it was ... s=
sshhh ... the Canadians.<SPAN> </SPAN><BR><BR>The point is ... all of =
this is like Monty Python's "Argument Clinic".<BR>It's all contradiction
to some, and good fun for others, but there is<BR>not a lot of evidence an=
ywhere to make hard conclusions about<BR>"who! done it". Yet.<BR><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 a t 8:02 AM, John Lupia<SPAN>=
</SPAN><SPAN dir=3Dltr><<A href=3D"mailto:jlupia2@yahoo.com" rel=
=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:jlupia2@yahoo.com">jlupia2@ya=
hoo. com</A>></SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN>wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid" class=3Dgmail=
_quote>
<DIV><BR><BR>
<TABLE border=3D0 cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: inherit; font-stretch: inherit" vAlign=3Dtop>Rand=
y<BR><BR>Besides State Mints how about Mexican Mints. After all, it has bee=
n proposed they made Lion Dollars. Why not state coppers as well. ;-)<BR><B=
R>John N. Lupia III<BR>New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon<SPAN> </SPAN><=
BR><A href=3D"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/" rel=3Dnof=
ollow target=3D_blank>http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Roman- Catholic- News=
/</A><BR>God Bless Everyone<BR><BR>--- On<SPAN> </SPAN><B>Wed, 9/23/09=
, Randy! Clark<SPAN> </SPAN><I><<A href=3D"mailto:centsitive@gmail.=
com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:centsitive@gmail.com"=
>centsitive@gmail. com</A>></I></B><SPAN> </SPAN>wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"><BR>From: Randy=
Clark <<A href=3D"mailto:centsitive@gmail.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D=
_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:centsitive@gmail.com">centsitive@gmail. com</A>>=
;=20
<DIV><BR>Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Important NJ Discovery - Botch=
ed V Punch<BR></DIV>
<DIV>To:<SPAN> </SPAN><A href=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogroups.com=
" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:colonial-coins@yahoogrou=
ps.com">colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. com</A><BR></DIV>Date: Wednesday, Sept=
ember 23, 2009, 10:45 AM=20
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>
<DIV><BR><BR>Wow.<SPAN> </SPAN><BR><BR>The list of British invasions g=
ets bigger yet. In addition to the Revolution, 1812 and the Beatles,<BR>we =
now were clandestinely invaded with colonial state coppers. Crude ones, no =
less ... which<BR>made them much different than the local colonial state co=
! ppers. An interesting idea, but hard<BR>to see where the economics wou ld=
make any freaking sense to off shore makers, who would<BR>have to pay ship=
ping costs to dump cheap coppers into a mark crowded with cheap coppers.<BR=
>But hey ... who said counterfeiter had brains ?<BR><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 7:37 AM, Byron<SPAN> =
</SPAN><SPAN dir=3Dltr><<A href=3D"http://mc/compose?to=3Dbkw11@psu.edu"=
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>bkw11@psu.edu</A>></SPAN><SPAN> </S=
PAN>wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid" class=3Dgmail=
_quote>Hi Steve,<BR><BR>I predict that one day American "Colonial" collecto=
rs will have to wrap their minds around the fact that a few of those crude =
NJ and CT coppers were actually imports from Great Britain or Ireland, and =
not the product of some clandestine American mint.<BR><BR>Byron<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV><BR>--- In<SPAN> </SPAN><A href=3D"http://mc/compose?to=3Dcolonia=
l-coins@yahoogroups.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>colonial-coins@ yah=
oogroups. com</A>, Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@ ...> wrote:<BR>><BR=
></DIV>
<DIV>> Didn't Conder tokens make their way here? It could have been the =
other way around too. I agree with Byron's thoughts on most collectors want=
ing to believe everything they own is "Made in the USA"<s>, but even =
though the probabilities show this coin as being a British product, without=
proof, the owners can imagine whatever they wish.....and usually do.<BR>&g=
t;<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> ____________ _________ _________ __<BR><=
/DIV>> From: Ray Williams <njraywms@...><BR>
<DIV>> To:<SPAN> </SPAN><A href=3D"http://mc/compose?to=3Dcolonial-=
coins@yahoogroups.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>colonial-coins@ yahoo=
groups. com</A><BR>> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:54:29 AM<BR>&=
gt; Subject: Re: [Colonial Numismatics] Important NJ Discovery - Botched V =
Punch<BR>><BR>> <BR>> Oliver,<BR>> &n! bsp; &nbs=
p; Because the Auctori Plebis reverse is muled with other Conder Token=
s, it appears that the design of the token was imitated from that of a CT C=
opper and struck in England. <BR>> Ray<BR>><BR>><BR>> From=
: Oliver D. Hoover<BR>> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:06 AM<BR>&=
gt; To: colonial-coins@ yahoogroups. com<BR>> Subject: Re: [Colonial Num=
ismatics] Important NJ Discovery - Botched V Punch<BR>> <BR>> R=
andy,<BR>><BR>> I was wondering the same thing about the possible rel=
ationship between the Auctori Plebis pieces and the CT
series.<BR>><BR>> Oliver<BR>><BR>><BR>> On 22-Sep-09, at 5:=
24 PM, Randy Clark wrote:<BR>><BR>><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>>=
>Byron ... is there now evidence Auctori Plebis is foreign made ? It co=
uld equally be<BR>> >considered a colonial issue in the absence of co=
ntrary evidence. In fact, I was<BR>> >looking closely at them for a w=
hile to see if it could have been a CT product,<BR>> >born o
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